Pescatarianism as an 'ethical halfway house'?

[WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll]

Let me say at the start that I am an omnivore and that I fully respect people's choices as to their own dietary decisions (as long as they respect mine), but I am a bit baffled at some people's attitudes to pescatarianism.

Now, if you're pescatarian because you don't like beef, chicken, pork, lamb etc but do like fish then it makes perfect sense. However, there seems to be a widespread attitude amongst a not-insignificant number of people who pride themselves on their personal ethical choices that fish 'aren't really animals'.

When certain people who are vegetarians for ethical reasons find themselves in a foreign country/situation where eating vegetarian is very difficult, they often seem to settle on eating fish as a compromise - a 'halfway house' - in a way that they never would dream of with chicken or beef, however limited the alternative options.

We have a very dear friend who, whilst not 'evangelical' about it, has always described herself as, and prided herself on, being a vegetarian. We were shocked once when we went out for a meal and she ordered scampi. There were several vegetarian options, but she just 'fancied' the scampi. Fair enough. I expressed gentle surprise and she said "Oh, yes, I eat fish." I commented in a friendly way "Oh, I didn't know you were pescatarian." This made her very cross and she insisted "No, I am a VEGETARIAN!!" I left it there - her life, her choice - but I was somewhat perplexed.

Considering that it is perfectly possible to stun and kill a cow or sheep in a relatively humane way with little pain or advance knowledge/fear (obviously, still totally unacceptable to many); whereas it is impossible to catch and kill a fish without causing it trauma and drowning it.

As I say, it's entirely up to everybody to choose what they are willing to eat for whatever reason, but I just wonder why some people will pointedly not eat 'anything with a face' for ethical reasons - unless it's a fish; and then get offended (OK, it might just be my friend on this one) when you describe them using the neutral term that was specifically developed to distinguish them from vegetarians.

I realise that vegans mostly see ALL vegetarians as 'halfway-house fence-sitters' for not eating the remains of a slaughtered animal but for happily enjoying the products of their 'misery' - taking milk away from calves, eating eggs that leads to male chicks being thrown into a mincer as soon as they're born etc. - although, even then, how many vegans take a stand and actively refuse to buy produce originating from farms that use pesticides and thus cause the deaths of animals in order that humans can eat?

But I digress. No intention at all of insulting or criticising people for their own choices - I'm just interested to understand the rationale behind permanent or temporary pescatarianism amongst those who blanket-refuse to eat all other kinds of animals for ethical reasons.

DD (9) is a pescatarian for 'fussy eater who hates the texture of most meat' reasons. It's a very convenient label to describe to people what she will and won't eat. I would describe myself as pescatarian as I do very occasionally eat other meat (dinner at friends houses etc) but am trying to reduce meat consumption for environmental reasons.

I have come up against quite a few people who believe that fish aren't meat, although when I ask them what fish are they draw a total blank.

I think it's a relic from ye olde church days, myself. From the times when people were told not to eat meat on Fridays, so everyone had fish Fridays instead (this has now changed to fish'n'chips on a Friday!) Even though this makes no sense, it has led to a viewpoint that fish aren't meat. One more thing to blame on religion!!

Arrgh! I wouldn't describe myself as pescatarian. I would, however, describe myself as fat-fingered.

I was pescatarian because I felt comfortable killing fish, and had done so on fishing trips myself, but felt distressed when witnessing a friend hunt and kill game birds and rabbits. I knew there was no way I would be able to kill a bird or sheep or cow and so it seemed hypocritical to let somebody else kill them for me to eat. I don’t feel upset when killing fish/ shrimp etc so it felt reasonable to carry on eating them.

I suppose it is the same way somebody might be able to eat a pig or cow but couldn’t eat a dog or horse. I imagine there are many uk carnivores who eat beef/ pork see themselves as ethically superior to meat-eaters in Asia eating dog and cat. It’s not necessarily logical anymore than it is logical for a pescatarian to feel morally superior to a carnivore, but I suppose if you put animals lives in a hierarchy based on your own morals then it’s natural you see those eating a life you see as more valued as less ethical, regardless of how logical or biased your personal hierarchy may be.

Doesn’t something like 70% of ocean pollution come from the fishing industry?

Don’t try and kid yourself that the fish industry is all fine and dandy.

Fish farms exist and are worse than the worse battery chicken farm you’ll ever see. Literally swimming around in their own shit.

And overfishing is a huge huge problem for the rest of the oceans ecosystem. As a PP mentioned, southern resident orcas are literally starving to death because humans are taking all the salmon before it gets to them.

I eat meat and fish, but I don’t try fool myself that the fishing industry is somehow less harmful than the land based equivalent. It’s just less visible under the waves.

Agree with PP, can’t get worked up about this. People get to chose what they eat and chose different things.

midnightmisssuki

Eating meat and fish twice a year is massively better then eating meat and fish every day. And she is definitely a vegetarian!

How can one be a vegetarian if they eat fish and meat? Doesn’t matter if it’s only twice a year - being vegetarian means not eating meat (including fish) at all. Reasonable to say ‘I eat a mainly vegetarian diet’ and still occasionally eat meat, but to say ‘I am a vegetarian’ would be a lie.

And she is definitely a vegetarian!

She most definitely is not.

she is definitely a vegetarian!

No she isn’t. She’s a hypocriterian.

No she isn’t. She’s a hypocriterian.

At least that's got to be better than a humanitarian. Or 'cannibal', as they used to call them....

YANBU to think it's not an ethical halfway house - it just feels more comfortable because noone can hear fish scream and farmed fish don't necessarily have happy little fishy lives.

Cutting down on animal produce in any way is much better for the environment and might free up the cash to make sure any animal produce that is bought is higher-welfare.

This woman's sneery face is hypocritical.

(I'm an omnivore).

I really don't like the moral competitiveness around food. There is no such thing as a human being that has no impact on animals or the planet, so we are all compromising to different extents.

Personally, I try to eat as little as possible of animals or animal products, but I don't give myself a label. I often go a couple of weeks on an entirely plant-based diet but then will have a piece of cake, or a chocolate, or even some shepherd's pie if someone's made one. This often means I am the enemy of both vegans and omnivores!

Re fish, Jonathan Safran Foer concluded in 'Eating Animals' that eating fish was worse than eating mammals, both in terms of suffering for the fish (no regulations about how they are killed, and because of by-catch) and impact on the planet (depleting oceans, pollution, plastic from all those nets left in the sea).

If it`s got a face I eat it.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll Ahhh I see, in which case YANBU. She is a hypocrite.

I think it's labels that are the problem. Just eat what you want.

I don't eat meat and eat a small amount of fish and dairy, preferring to eat vegan wherever possible.

I think we should all try and eat less animal products for the good of the animals and the environment and stop criticising what others do.

Fishing is the biggest polluter of the sea, so not really that ethical.

There's also the issue with overfishing and starving other animals because the fishers have left nothing behind for them to eat.

When I first went veggie as an adult, I thought I’d keep eating fish as it was my favourite ‘meat’, but quickly felt I couldn’t justify it ethically, since I was avoiding meat for ethical reasons. That said, I eat sweets with gelatin and take a fish oil supplement so I’m not technically vegetarian, but I say I am as that’s the basis of my diet. It’s easier to say than to tell people ‘I follow a mainly vegetarian diet’ which sounds a bit wanky.

anyone who bores on about other people's food choices should, in my opinion, be served lightly stewed.

in the absence of that option just take said fish and slap her round the head with it. Or find someone more entertaining, not difficult.

It's not rational anyway to think eating plants instead of animals is in some way more ethical - it just demonstrates the person's inability to empathise or relate to plants in the way they do animals, so claiming it's about ethics in my view makes them hypocrites.

Anyone going to comment on this piece of brilliance or shall we just quietly move on...?

Can someone explain how you drown a fish

Pull it backwards?

Meh I don't think people need to justify themselves, we should all do what we can but that comes in many forms.

I'm a vegetarian. I've also never really 'got' how some people don't seem to include fish in the list of animals they won't eat. Fish often die slowly when taken from the water, and things like live cooking of lobsters etc is a horrible process. And besides that over-fishing is a massive issue. But then, I guess I'm a hypocrite myself given that I eat eggs / cheese when the egg / dairy industry is hardly ethical either. To be fair even vegans have to accept a certain amount of bloodshed goes into their food (pesticides used in most commercial food production kill a number of insects / animals for example, and loads of little mice etc gets killed every time a combine harvester for crop harvesting ploughs over their head). I've decided ultimately that any step that anyone wants to take to eat more ethically is better than none.