To think concealing institutions would promote equality

[ChilledBee]

Imagine if when you applied for a school, university or job, you could only put your expected/achieved grades but not where you got it from, do you think it would improve equality?

If you/your child went to/attends a "top" institution, would you care if you/they couldn't state that on their applications?

ChilledBee you seem to be working on the assumption that only rich privileged people go to RG universities. You are so very wrong. Plenty of people from underprivileged backgrounds also attend RG universities because they’re clever and work hard to get there

I did my first degree at an old, very well respected RG. My second degree was specific to my profession and sponsored by my then employer, it was at a modern ex-poly. There were few similarities between the two and the difficulty/complexity of the latter was not even really comparable to my first year at the former institution.

Oh and I went to a crappy state comp and a separate sixth form college, and still got in to the RG university.

Some people are content not to have/achieve much and that's okay too. The same goes for institutions.

Why do you think university spend tons in money on new facilities? They want to be better to attract more applicants. Not just because they want to better themseleves.

We know that Oxbridge,for example, lack racial and class diversity in their intake. So your chances of accessing a top uni when you're from an disadvantaged background or demographic is smaller than if you are not. Even with the same expected grades.

So your chances of accessing a top uni when you're from an disadvantaged background or demographic is smaller than if you are not. Even with the same expected grades.

Yes, absolutely. But that same privilege applies when you're starting out in your career, because the most privileged have family who know how things work, help with connections, and allow them to live rent free while doing the kind of unpaid work experience that you need to get the really interesting jobs. Taking the name of those kids' universities off application forms would have no effect whatsoever on any of that for the nice-but-dims who blag their way into the best universities. It would however mean that you'd have to distinguish between the Middlesex and King's graduates based on their internship and gap yah and the fact that their uncle who you know from the local Conservative Association mentioned they were a good sort, rather than on the fact that one of them had to demonstrate some serious intellectual rigour for their degree and the other put all their effort into organising rugby club socials.

Chilled, I totally agree with you and proposed something very similar a few weeks ago.

But that same privilege applies when you're starting out in your career, because the most privileged have family who know how things work, help with connections, and allow them to live rent free while doing the kind of unpaid work experience that you need to get the really interesting jobs.

In time, if things became more equal, everyone would be able to offer the next generation some help in this respect. Rather than some people able to do lots, and others none, or worse, be a burden in terms of their prospects. So this would still be an issue for a long time, but being unable to use the big name institutions to reinforce your privilege and instead having to achieve through grades and character would help this process of reducing inequality.

Taking the name of those kids' universities off application forms would have no effect whatsoever on any of that for the nice-but-dims who blag their way into the best universities. It would however mean that you'd have to distinguish between the Middlesex and King's graduates based on their internship and gap yah and the fact that their uncle who you know from the local Conservative Association mentioned they were a good sort, rather than on the fact that one of them had to demonstrate some serious intellectual rigour for their degree and the other put all their effort into organising rugby club socials.

And remember, I'm talking about all institutions. So you wouldn't be able to use your prestigious high school on your uni application. Just your grades. So already you're having to to rely on grades and character to achieve that sort of privilege. Sure you can talk about your gap year travelling but your experiences will be comparable to someone who maybe came to this country as a refugee and has managed to gain the academic and personal skills that make an application to this renown institution realistic.

I don't think it is The Answer but it will go some way to breaking that cycle. Particularly at UCAS level.

But chilled, how do you solve that not all institutions are equally rigorous academically? The grades are simply not equivalent. If you make them equivalent, what will actually happen is the universities that accept students with lower grades will basically not be able to hand out the higher grades of degree. Because graduate jobs typically require those higher grades, those institutions will become pointless... etc etc

I'm not clear what you hope to achieve through this? You can't get away from the underlying problem that poorer kids get worse a-level results on average. Ive come across this notion among poorer people that a degree whitewashed everything before it, supersedes mediocre a-level results and magically enables C & D grade students to consider careers in finance/law/engineering..... In reality, a-levels are the BIG filter, they determine the calibre of university you can access and thus define your job prospects thereafter.

To really improve equality we need to improve the a-level attainment

My work have done this. I think it's ridiculous for the same reason as pp (ie a 2:1 from Oxford is not the as a 2:1 from Oxford Brookes).

Independence and being their own authority in terms of the awards they confer is fundamental to their very existence.

How on earth could any superior authority arbitrate the standardisation between such bodies? Only some authority which was higher itself in terms of academic knowledge than any university. No such body exists.

How do they do it for GCSEs?

How do they ensure an A in an English A Level requires a comparable level of academic aptitude to an A in another subject like History?

You can't get away from the underlying problem that poorer kids get worse a-level results on average

Maybe if some of those poorer kids got into better schools/colleges/universities, they'd do better. Those who already do exceptionally well would have a better chance of getting in.

How do they do it for GCSEs?

Have you ever set foot inside a university?

Oh god, please don't let them standardise university education too. The only way I can talk some of my year 13s into not giving up on education entirely is with the promise that university won't be the same relentless and soulless teaching to the standardised examination written by someone entirely removed from the actual process of their education. Let's not take away the only remaining educational stage where the point of learning is to learn and not to pass a standardised national exam.

I may have entirely missed the point of the thread but the thought of this gives me horrors.

University degrees are to some extent standardised. All work is also marked by an external examiner from another university.

Lecturers at all the different universities generally have phds. More prestigious and less prestigious universities second mark each other’s work. A lecturer teaching at a high ranking university may progress to being a senior lecturer at a lower ranking university. But they’re generally marking to the same standard at both.

You do realise that there isn't a set syllabus and list of facts for each subject at university level? In fact, there isn't even a standard set of subjects! My degree included a research project. The final year lecture courses were related to the research that the academics were doing. You can't standardise that sort of education.

They don’t do it for GCSEs. Some subjects are significantly harder than others.

Yy rosemary the point of a degree is to be taught by the people at the forefront of their field. The world experts. No one else can teach those final year courses because they’re taught by the leaders in the field.

You can’t standardise university in the sense of American standardised tests.

But an undergraduate dissertation on a specialist topic will always be second marked from an examiner from a totally different university, as well as all the exam papers etc.

end that's not entirely true. In my institution second marking is still internal but we do have an external examiner who looks at samples of work.

Yes, that’s a truer description. An internal second marker and then usually the external for a bigger course would look at samples for a first, a third etc on exam papers.

All courses have an external examiner. It doesn't matter how big or small. There is also an internal moderation process for all assignments which means a sample of work is moderated.
Academics have to be so transparent about the marking process because students regularly complain about their marks.

your chances of accessing a top uni when you're from an disadvantaged background or demographic is smaller than if you are not. Even with the same expected grades

you wouldn't be able to use your prestigious high school on your uni application. Just your grades

Anecdotally I disagree with you. A standard Cambridge offer is AA A

A relative coming from a fairly deprived northern town sixth form was offered AAA and achieved AAB. Relative still kept the place

An applicant from a “prestigious” high school would not have been given the lower offer nor kept the place

chilled Poor people aren't less intelligent but they are likely to achieve lower grades due to a wide range of factors. And even of they do attain high grades they are still more likely to choose lower ranking, mid to low tariff universities.

Social mobility is is decline in the UK.

Benes, what I mean is that if it is a module with a small number of students, the external examiner may look at all the papers.