To not understand the SNPs position at all??

[doubtingmorag]

Let me know if this should be in Politics ? I thought i might get more replies here.

I'm looking for genuine answers as I feel like I am out of whack with a good number of otherwise sensible people or I am surely missing something.

The SNP have constantly railed against the madness of Brexit and the catastrophic consequences of leaving the EU. We (Scotland) currently have £45 billion trade with the rUK and about 15 billion with the EU.

If we leave the UK we lose freedom of movement arounf the UK and we lose free trade with by far our biggest market. Why would westminster be willing to give Edinburgh any of the benefits of being in the UK once we leave. Some sort of deal will need to be thrashed out and I don't think a tory govt. in Westminster are going to be in a generous mood. Would there need to be 2nd referendum to OK that deal ?

If we leave the UK and join the EU then the current backstop will be nothing, we're going to need a hard border and we'll have to trade with by far our largest market on whatever terms BJ and crew manage to negotiate.

Surely all of this is a much greater catastrophe that we currently face (even if I agree it is potentially catastrophic) ?

Less practical, but doesn't chucking a 300+ year political and economic union down the toilet and aligning ourselves with Brussels and Berlin over London because we don't like Boris Johnson seem extremely dangerous ?

So good indy supporters of mumsnet, what am I not getting ?

We can't join Europe unless we vote yes for independence - I don't notice a surge of people moving to vote for independence. So no change imo.

We can't join Europe unless we vote yes for independence - I don't notice a surge of people moving to vote for independence

But that is what the SNP want and by extension want us to believe is in the best interests of the country ? They must also feel that there is a chance they will win because Scots would rather be in the EU than the UK ?

YABVU

SNP want an independent Scotland. End of.

Most people in Scotland don't.

Europe brings another dimension but its independence first and foremost.

Not that hard to understand.

What do you want?

@doubtingmorag I don't get it either and thought it was just me. It's lunacy 🤷‍♀️

I agree. The whole thing just goes round in circles. I have to laugh at the social media posts suggesting Scotland is somehow more liberal, more tolerant and more outward looking than our adjacent neighbours. And we're going to prove it by building a wall below Berwick.

I think we voted to stay in Europe because we didn't have huge influxes of immigrants like parts of England. This was prob because we didn't have jobs for them to come to. Rather than us being welcoming to foreigners.

If we leave the UK we lose freedom of movement arounf the UK and we lose free trade with by far our biggest market. Why would westminster be willing to give Edinburgh any of the benefits of being in the UK once we leave. Some sort of deal will need to be thrashed out and I don't think a tory govt. in Westminster are going to be in a generous mood. Would there need to be 2nd referendum to OK that deal ?

Because the SNP assume that if Scotland gained independence we would continue to move freely throughout the uk, would continue with the queen as monarch and would keep the pound (though that might have changed since last time round). I honestly don’t think the SNP has thought about what breaking that union would actually mean in practice - it’s a heart over head decision.

And I’m not sure that the EU would want an independent Scotland on their books or that Scottish people would want the terms which membership would come at which I’m pretty sure would include adopting the euro.

It’s all a bit of a clusterfuck really.

I think we voted to stay in Europe because we didn't have huge influxes of immigrants like parts of England.

I think actually the figures show that immigration is stabilising Scotland’s population in that our population would be falling quite a bit but for immigration filling the gap. We do have a strong pattern of immigration, it just isn’t affecting our public services in the same way as elsewhere.

We do have a strong pattern of immigration, it just isn’t affecting our public services in the same way as elsewhere.

It is starting to though. Although in my area, the public services are being affected by the council approving every housing plan put on the table and yet reducing school places, not building any more hospitals or GPs etc.

I hope Scotland never goes independent, but I think it's getting increasingly likely. This whole country is screwed, thanks to the tories.

I have to laugh at the social media posts suggesting Scotland is somehow more liberal, more tolerant and more outward looking than our adjacent neighbours.

To be fair, this is actually backed up by statistics.

They said OP, yanbu. Independence would just be doubling down on significant risk at this point. I haven't seen answers to any of the significant questions the prospect raises - what currency will we use? Who will be our head of state? Will we be able to join the EU right away? Will we need to use the euro? Will we have to agree to schengen? What will the border look like? - and at this point, I don't see how it could reasonably be argued that it would be anything other than a catastrophe.

I agree it's definitely a heart over head decision, but I can sympathise.
I think Brexit has exacerbated the feeling amongst many that Scotland has little sway in the UK and how they are governed. Vote against the Tories? Tough, England wants them so you get them anyway. Vote against Brexit? Tough, England wants it so you're getting it anyway.
The danger is that an indy ref would mirror Brexit, in that a lot of people might make an emotional decision, or one based on sticking one to the establishment, without fully knowing the implications.

I live in Wales. There's a lot of Welsh nationalists who welcome all immigrants as long as they're not English. So that's a tiny proportion of all immigrants to Wales then.

Incidentally, I do see the point, there are legitimate concerns about the erosion of Welsh culture and so on. I don't even have a problem with the stance that immigration to Wales should be limited (though I don't think it would be practical). But it does annoy me when people who describe themselves as pro-immigration are quite clearly not.

Something similar seems to occur in regards to Welsh and Scottish independence and the EU.

I honestly don’t think the SNP has thought about what breaking that union would actually mean in practice - it’s a heart over head decision.

They really did think about it, Scotland's Future was published in 2014, 650 pages long.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland%27s_Future

I would understand if they said "oh well, unions don't always last" etc or "so what if we will be worse off, it's the principle"

But they haven't said that, they've constantly pointed out the dangers of leaving the EU and particularly the single market, when leaving the UK single market is going to be far far damaging to our economy.

I agree about the immigrant comment above, something like 90% of all migrants to the UK go to England yet the SNP try to paint Scotland as an utterly different people untroubled by trivial issues such as xenophobia....forgetting about sectarianism.

As for the white paper - can you image if one of the Brexiteer mob wrote a paper saying "this is what will happen if we leave the EU" before actually entering into any negotiations with them, and said there will never be a need for a second referendum because we already thought of it all ?? The SNP would be incandescent.

I understand completely and accept the argument about the democratic deficit, what i fail to comprehend is how anyone can think breaking apart the UK will go better for us than leaving the EU ?

Like it seems the SNP have overplayed this, they should have accepted both the end of a union with good grace and admitted that there might be some financial hardship (to say the least) as a result. That is what they want after all.

I think the increasingly extreme politics in England is driving many to think wed be better off away from the loons.

I agree about the immigrant comment above, something like 90% of all migrants to the UK go to England

But that is in line with the difference in population between England and Scotland -

The 2011 census recorded the population of England as 53.0 million, Scotland as 5.3 million, Wales as 3.1 million, and Northern Ireland as 1.8 million

I can see your point op. I find it hard to understand how the SNO hold the position that Brexit is damaging, dangerous and racist while leaving the Uk is easy, sensible and the patriotic decision?

I have sympathy for the independence argument in Scotland (I voted leave in the Brexit vote) but surely if there are economic risks to Brexit, then those of Scottish independence are greater?

SNP sorry.

They really did think about it, Scotland's Future was published in 2014, 650 pages long.

And yet all that thought and no actual answers to fairly important questions like currency, freedom of movement, head of stare, armed services...

Seeing the problems in NI / Ireland and their borders I really think we should forget historical bitterness and move on . We really are a global community thanks to the internet and air travel and all of the U.K. should just bluddy work together. Not including Ireland here as their battles were more recent,
All of the U.K. is disadvantaged by the concentration of power in London, not just Scotland.
I am hoping for a big shake up of Westminster gov after Brexit is passed whichever way it goes, stop the adversarial 2 party yabooing, cut numbers by half. Stop the first past the post system, get a fucking grip.