Racism

[HungryAndNeedSomeToast]

I was reading another thread on here where racism was being discussed and it got me thinking ...

People on the thread were saying that comments and actions are racist if the person receiving them thinks they are, or experiences them as such.

But that seems a bit bonkers to me. That means anything I do or say could be considered racist if the other person thinks it ("can you pass me the ketchup please" - racist; "what time is it?" - racist ....)

Surely its more about the intent of the person making the comments or doing the actions?

What is your understanding / definition of racism? Is it more about intent, or how the person on the receiving end feels?

Bumping because I really want to know people's thoughts on this!

I think it's both op. Intent is always important in terms of the reaction, but people can be racist without realising. Say something they didn't realise was racist,so worth pointing out. But the reaction to it, should be tempered by the intent.

It's my understanding from the Equality Act that racial discrimination can be intentional or by someone who doesn't know they're being racist/doesn't mean to be racist.

The oppressor class deciding whether something is oppressive to the oppressed class is why all sorts of terrible racial oppression has gone on for centuries.

It doesn't mean that anything you say might be racist, and for people who are scared that 'you can't say anything any more' I'd suggest they educate themselves on racial oppression to develop a greater understanding of what the oppressed classes have experienced and why certain terms or phrases might be offensive.

I struggle with this too and, looking at definitions, there are plenty of different ones. Some definitions talk of prejudice and discrimination based on the belief that your race is superior to anothers. I find this odd and am surprised that anyone would really believe that they are superior to a whole race of people.

I can see that someone could regard themselves as, say, intellectually superior to a whole race of poor people where there is little or no education - but only in that regard and not actually superior to that race in other regards. That poor race could be superior in other regards.

Other definitions refer to racism being discrimination and additionally a condition in society in which a dominant racial group benefits from the oppression of others, whether that group wants such benefits or not.

I tend to think of it in terms of treating someone differently based purely on their colour or race. Maybe I am being too simplistic though.

I don't subscribe to the idea that it is down to the recipient to determine whether something is racist. There are people who have been the subject of racism who, as a result, have a chip on their shoulder and will also see racism when none is there.

This is the legal framework under which hate speech is defined. So in answer to the OP, yes, a victim could (theoretically) claim that 'pass the ketchup' had racist intent. (To go along with this example, one might claim that he/she was being perceived as waiting staff because of their race). It is, in my opinion, a flaw in the legislation on hate crimes and also on the hate crime statistics. The latter being because if you take me to court for asking you to pass me the ketchup, because you deemed it to have a racist/sexist/etc motive, and it was dismissed by the court as ludicrous, it would still appear as a hate crime in the police statistics.

In my opinion it would be much better to have guidelines on what comprises hate speech. That unfortunately would have to include examples and be regularly updated. However, I can't see any other way of making the law clearer.

Some people also shout 'racism' when something factual is being discussed eg "I had a car accident yesterday, it was hit and run by a red fiat and the driver was a black male". Some people will not be swayed that using the words 'black' or 'mulsim' are not 'racist' and cite urban myths like 'baa baa white sheep' or school blackboards are banned or Christmas is banned and is now Wintervall

I don't think it's as simple as that. It's possible to be racist even without intending it to be. And I don't think there is a widespread problem of people accusing others of racism towards them on absolutely no basis whatsoever.

The problem with saying that it's all about intent is that it doesn't stop racism from happening, and doesn't take into account the feelings of the person who has experienced the racism.

Say you're talking to a black person and you say something like 'you're really well spoken for a black person'. You might intend that as a compliment. Your intentions might be wholly positive. But it's still a racist thing to say, and the person you say it to is still allowed to be hurt, even if you didn't mean to hurt them.

It's also an issue because giving too much weight to intention ignores the huge issue of subconscious racism; we all have biases which we should work to challenge.

Spoken as "someone of colour", I find the problem with racism is as much with the body looking to prosecute and legislate, as the people who either perpetrate or experience it.

For example, a white Manchester City footballer sent his black teammate a joke image on Twitter this weekend, likening him to a kid's confectionary company logo (a stylised black child).

The furore from this has been utterly ridiculous. The FA are "investigating" (!), and the Kick Out Racism lot are positively salivating now they've found some low hanging fruit and some public figures.

It's silly because it doesn't take into account intent. Interview the black City player (a known prankster) and he'll dismiss it within a minute.

Does the action itself perpetuate race sterotypes? Perhaps, but isn't there more pernicious activity happening which needs closer attention?

As a result what I think is "racist" is actions motivated by subjugation and hatred. A need to box up that person, restrict them, put them down.

In the case of the footballers, that person felt comfortable enough to have a joke with someone, a close friend, who happened to be black. That's not racism at all to me. It may tread around racial stereotypes in a clumsy manner, but the intent was love and joking.

That's interesting, thanks GinDaddy. I would be interesting therefore to compare the current law (focusing on perceived offence) with one which focused on intent.

This might help address less visible forms of racism. So for example, using a racist word while singing a rap song would be perfectly legal, and not considered racist, as there was no intent to harm. Whereas politely not giving someone a job because you don't like people with a certain skin colour would be actionable.

I'm quite okay with the minority person getting to decide what is and is not offensive to them on a personal level. If I say something and someone tells me that what I said offended them, I will apologise and do my best to remember not to say anything similar to them again. It's not that hard and I consider it a matter of basic courtesy.

As to why saying "I got hit by a car yesterday. It was a red fiat driven by a black male" is racist. It's because the skin colour of the driver doesn't seem very relevant at all to the situation, unless you're speaking to the police who are trying to track down the driver to prosecute. All you really needed to say in general conversation was "I got hit by a car yesterday."

I think racism is often implied where there's may not be any.

There was an incident in America recently where a black guy shot and killed 3 black teens who were in his garden. He's got away with it, I don't think he was even arrested but you can guarantee if the shooter had been white race would have been dragged into it.

I'm not comfortable with race being dragged into every incident involving a white person where no racism has taken place. When the reality is sometimes we all come across dickheads having a dickhead Day. 🤔💁

It's not really your place to decide where racism has or hasn't taken place though Rubbing. That's the decision of the minority person. And, had a white person shot and killed three teenagers of colour, it would be pretty likely that racism was at least a contributing factor. There is a long and wide history of racism and violence in the world. We are all born with racist instincts - the 'different than us' the 'us vs them', we all have that. It's down to the individual how they choose to deal with these ingrained instincts, if they challenge them or if they let them rule.

Accidentally making a comment that a POC says is racist does not make you a bad person. Not apologising and then learning from your error is what does that.

had a white person shot and killed three teenagers of colour, it would be pretty likely that racism was at least a contributing factor

I'm not sure that itself isn't a racist comment or at least making assumptions where they may not be warranted.

Accidentally making a comment that a POC says is racist does not make you a bad person. Not apologising and then learning from your error is what does that.

Well surely that depends on the comment. If I just said to my friend something completely neutral like 'did you have a nice weekend?' and then she said she felt offended by that racist comment. I would not feel a need or reason to apologise. I'd ask her why she found it racist, but I would not feel the need to apologise for an innocent comment and it would not stop me asking other friends how their weekends have been.

OP - what do you think is a more widespread problem:

(1) People claiming that totally innocuous comments like 'did you have a nice weekend?' are racist and kicking off about them

Or

(2) People behaving in ways which are upsetting and / or harmful to people of colour, and then claiming that it shouldn't matter because it wasn't their intention to cause harm (even though they did).

It's pretty obvious from just a cursory glance at the world that (2) is much more of a problem than (1). So let's focus on what the real issue is, instead of derailing it with hypotheticals.

Exactly bouje :)

OP I'd be very surprised if a POC found someone asking about their weekend to be racist (and suspect it's never happened) thus your argument doesn't really impact on the situation at hand. But if someone said I had offended, I would automatically apologise even if I didn't understand the offence. Because I'm not a dick.

As for the 'reverse racism' claim. That's racial prejudice perhaps, but not racism due to the lack of systematic power imbalance from POC to White folk. Have a read www.aclrc.com/myth-of-reverse-racism

Honestly racism often pervades some people’s every word so it’s not as simple as listing a bunch of racist words for people to avoid. I have had several Jewish colleagues successfully win tribunals because they were consistantly asked ‘how was your weekend’ by sniggering sneery colleagues who excluded them. By itself the words were innocent but the intent behind them
Coupled with the exclusion wasn’t.

I also think it should be the victims of racist abuse who should be able to tell white people what they find racist. Not the other way around. Similarly men should be informing the discourse on feminism or female sex discrimination because they would have no idea.

*Should not be

Ugh Teddy how awful for your colleagues, I'm glad they won their tribunals!

@HungryAndNeedSomeToast It's not racist to acknowledge that there is a huge problem with racism and racially aggravated murders & assaults in the US, and that it is likely (although not certain) that if 3 young black men had been killed by a white man it would probably be racially motivated even if the person themselves wasn't racist.

ie, he may have thought that black men are prone to violence and often carry weapons and therefore have fired his gun sooner than if the 3 men had been white. He may not be someone who is 'racist' per say but there is an undercurrent of bias, coming from media/etc.

THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE. I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS TRUE OF ALL BLACK MEN!

I also think we need to acknowledge that white people do not have the lived experience of racism and the microaggressions that go along with it. Therefore, it is worth listening to and respecting the stories of people who have, even if (and especially when) they make us feel uncomfortable or we feel defensive.

in the US there have been many cases of people shooting black children after the kids came ‘too close’ to their houses. Guaranteed white or Indian or Chinese kids would not have been shot in that situation

• it is likely (although not certain) that if 3 young black men had been killed by a white man it would probably be racially motivated even if the person themselves wasn't racist.

ie, he may have thought that black men are prone to violence and often carry weapons and therefore have fired his gun sooner than if the 3 men had been white. He may not be someone who is 'racist' per say but there is an undercurrent of bias, coming from media/etc.*

But in this example, the gunman was racist, because he believed that black men are prone to violence etc and because of this belief, he treated them differently (ie, shot them).

It doesn't matter where that belief originated, or why the gunman held that belief. The belief itself was racist, and a person holding a racist belief is a racist.

Believing racist shite in the media, or from any source, doesn't mean someone is not racist. In fact, ime racists are more likely to believe racist shite precisely because they are racists.

@LakieLady I was trying to use an example of someone whose everyday thoughts and actions weren’t racist but who IS racist even if someone doesn’t think they are. I may not have worded it correctly. Thinking a stereotype is a true representation of a person of a particular race or ethnic origin may not be, for some, what they think is racist.

My point is that you can be racist and not even realise you are.

The problem here is that in the UK we never had absolute laws about racism like they did in America, or apartheid South Africa, therefore people are just plain ignorant about it.

The law currently tries to explain it, and it says something along the lines of ' if in the same situation someone was treated differently'. Something along those lines. But this applies to sexism, or any other discrimination. But it's a starting point. It's hard to describe till you or your loved ones have experienced it. And I have to say I resent how dismissive those who have never experienced or had family do , are. Judging a person when you have never walked in their moccasins and so on...............