Abolishing private schools - how would it work in practice?

[Dongdingdong]

Labour has voted to abolish private schools:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-public-private-school-abolish-eton-vote-conference-corbyn-education-policy-a9115766.html

Whether you agree with this or not, I don’t understand how the logistics would work. Would private schools suddenly cease to exist from say, summer 2023, with all pupils forced to find a place at the local state school for the autumn term onwards? What would happen to the buildings and facilities - would they remain as state schools or be sold off to developers for example?

Not sure how DoubleTweenQueen is coming across as angry? Strikes me as a parent trying do the best for their children, having to pay fees reluctantly as that’s the best option for them at present (like the vast majority of private school parents - myself included)

To be fair, reading back I was pretty cross. It’s a couple of years of hearing/reading hate and vitriol and being ostracised by ‘friends’ on an idealogical level which has left a lot of stuff pent up :)

If Labour had a more centralist leader, who I had some faith in, and offered a confirmatory referendum (I personally think if there was another vote on referendum remainers would edge it).... Then I would vote for them. I could never bring myself to vote for Boris.

However I strongly disagree with seizing assets of private schools and making them state. I have a friend with a child with high functioning autism. It has made a huge difference to him having a bursary to a small private school.

We should concentrate on improving state schools, not destroying private. Also it would be at huge cost to the state. If some people choose to educate their children at private it is entirely up to them, and doesn't bother me in the least.

@Cinammoncake i agree. if a handful of parents could so easily change it all, it would have already been done. i would much prefer changing the school system to paying fees, but realistically, i can’t change it

Not sure if it’s come up (sry, can’t travel through 29 pages), but it may be possible if it’s only 7%. Still one hell of an expensive buyout exercise for taxpayers to foot though.

We have 35% of primary school children educated privately here and 41% of high school children so it would never work. Many years ago there was some such rumbling (although more to do with not funding private school children with the same base rate as would occur if going public), and the private sector encouraged all parents across the country to rock up to their local public schools on a designated day and demand enrolment as it is the right of a citizen to have your children publicly educated. It’s estimated roughly a third of patents did this. Of course the public school principals had a fit on the day when they were swamped with an extra 15% school population demanding enrolment and turned them all away thus ‘proving the point’ that the government cannot offer everyone a public education. Died down after that but people still throw it up every now and again, will never occur.

Ask the Finns. The rich fall over themselves to make sure the state funds dedicated to state schools are super adequate and extensive as their little urchins will end up going to them. Makes sense.

We have two private schools that are faith based, will they be exempt or will Labour take on the church/mosque/synagogues within the UK??

Not really as any policy from Labour will be criticised heavily

Happy to link you to the many, many threads criticising Tory education policy if you think this policy is only being slated as it comes from Labour.

The Finnish school system has been built up over decades and has very strong foundations. The differences with this system and that of the UK are many and there are many articles on the subject available if you search for them.

SVRT19674 - Do you suggest it is better funded than the UK? I would suggest it is more of a general & fundamental social philosophy?nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_cmd.pdf

DoubleTweenQueen 'Most state schools don’t let anyone know. Most probably aren’t bothered to find out about it.' Rather than ranting that some posters don't have the same knowledge about independent schools as you, maybe educate yourself about state schools and divest yourself of your prejudice. It is irrational to characterise those opposed to independent schools as ideologically driven, as if those who support independent schools aren't. Thinking it is most important to get what you characterise as the best education for your own children is in itself ideological.

This might come out better as a link:
nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_cmd.pdf

I’ve just looked at it quickly, but it suggests to me that both as a per-pupil expenditure and %of national GDP, the UK spends marginally more on education per pupil, up to the end of secondary school, than Finland.

What seems to be more interesting to me, is that the Finnish system is run by educators, and not the politicians as in the UK. Much like our independent school system. Perhaps we should be looking more closely at the Finnish system, which is cited quite a lot as a model, and see how the state system here can try to emulate it’s successes?

Scrapping faith schools is not going to happen but stopping state funding of them could happen. Something would have to be done differently with those faith schools in places where no other school exists, I'm not sure what.

the UK spends marginally more on education per pupil, up to the end of secondary school, than Finland.

This is not just government spending, those figures include the thousands of pounds spent by parents sending their kid to private school.

Perhaps we should be looking more closely at the Finnish system

The Finnish system is screwed, falling down the rankings due to bad curriculum decisions. No one is looking at it any more.

obligations - I have worked in and had experience of the state system over a number of years. Not irrational in the least but based on personal experience of both sectors and a number of schools. I do not look at state vs independent. I look at the school. My personal choices are based on that alone. I look at the evidence and make an informed choice.

What was SVRT on about then, if it is now failing?

Apologies for missing the expenditure sources. I’ll have a go at looking for public funding only......

The figure I found was about 6,200 GBP, which translates into around $7,700 USD (although it's not quite the right exchange rate as it'll will have changed)

www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/R126.pdf

What was SVRT on about then, if it is now failing?

A few years ago Finland was doing really well, but it’s gone wrong since then. People haven’t got up to date info.

Perhaps we should be looking more closely at the Finnish system*

The Finnish system is screwed, falling down the rankings due to bad curriculum decisions. No one is looking at it any more.*

This times a hundred.

I was educated in the Finnish system when it was world leading (left high school some 15 years ago). It was a traditional teacher-led way of learning and it focused on a wide range of serious subjects across humanities & sciences. We started at aged seven and started pretty full on, homework and expectance of a strong work ethic were very much part of it. Exams were left for teachers to manage locally, the first national exams didn't take place until I think aged 15/16. So teachers were trusted to do their job well.

Once politicians started "modernising" it, it's gone massively downhill. They no longer seem to believe in teachers teaching, they should now just "facilitate" etc. All that stuff...

As for abolishing private schools in the U.K., I'm uncomfortable with the idea of private education, but I also know that in the end I am more than likely to end up paying for schooling in the U.K. Either through inflated property prices within a good school's catchment area or, more directly, through fees. I'm fully aware that I'm hypocritical in this matter, purely driven to do what I believe would be best for my kid & within my means to offer.

What even is a private school? Everyone's talking Eton, Eton, Eton... but paying for schooling comes in many shapes. There are private faith schools, SN schools, prep schools, nursery schools...

Also, some wally upthread advocated all schools getting one Oxbridge place and three Russell Group places each. My dcs attend a sixth form with 2,000 pupils. It'll be a bit unfair on those at that school!

Apples, interesting you say that about the Finnish system and it's fall in standards since 'modernisation' One of the things we found very successful with our children at a private school was the very traditional methods of teaching. The classes were comparatively quiet, and much less chaotic compared to the local primary school. None of this sitting in groups of 4s and none of this idea that pupils are all working at different stages. But they either had desks in a U shape facing the teacher or in rows with the teacher leading the lesson.

Interesting. I have a feeling that I've seen something that suggests that that traditional teaching approach and seating arrangement works better for children with ASD too

I'm not sure Finland is a great comparison in any case. People always point to it, but it's homogenous, small, and rich.... Apples? Any thoughts?

It's the magnitude of the cultural chasms in the UK that drive involved parents out of the state system.

It’s interesting, as I’ve heard the Finnish system mentioned a lot over the years as a gold standard, and a benchmark for why independent schools shouldn’t exist.

AsTheWorldTurns, you're right, it is small & homogenous. Not really any richer than the UK though I'd say. They have higher taxation and different spending priorities (eg childcare is very cheap due to being heavily subsidised but healthcare costs at the point of use).

Education there was very divided when my parents went to school, there was an elective grammar school type of system and kids were separated at quite a young age (the system was still mainly state run but really divided kids to academic & non-academic ones). That system was abolished in the 70s and a system based on equality was introduced which resulted in a good level of attainment across the board. Schooling remained very traditional though, it was the access that was changed.

I'm really frustrated by seeing the good school system being currently ruined by the need to reinvent the wheel that seems to have been rife there recently.

I would disagree that all independent schools have better facilities than all state schools. State schools have at times received big injections of capital for buildings and equipment. The difference seems to occur in revenue and maintenance. One large state school I worked at had its maintenance budget cut by 90% one year with no warning. That would obviously be unlikely to happen at an independent because parents would want to know why things weren't being maintained.

I also wanted to pick up Jacques's point about wraparound. I've said many times on here before that it's my belief the current primary admissions system drives the gender pay gap. You get 4 months' notice of where your DC will go and there's no guarantee the school will even have wraparound. That's why our DC's in private. It actually worked out cheaper than moving and/or hiring childcare/one of us giving up work. We're teachers.

Poorly researched policies always have a lot of unintended consequences.

Hurray for Mumsnet, though. I read a similar thread on the FT this morning and this one's been better informed and much politer!