Abolishing private schools - how would it work in practice?

[Dongdingdong]

Labour has voted to abolish private schools:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-public-private-school-abolish-eton-vote-conference-corbyn-education-policy-a9115766.html

Whether you agree with this or not, I don’t understand how the logistics would work. Would private schools suddenly cease to exist from say, summer 2023, with all pupils forced to find a place at the local state school for the autumn term onwards? What would happen to the buildings and facilities - would they remain as state schools or be sold off to developers for example?

Wealth is an unfair system, but people who are involved in politics should be capable of more sophisticated thinking than to believe you can abolish private schools and they will magically be absorbed into the State system.

Abolishing private schools will do nothing to improve the standards of the worst State schools, and that is the real problem for the pupils who attend them.

Many private schools provide a level of education that is a benchmark for the state system. Tearing down that system will not improve the state system; would not reduce inequality within the state system where the education provision varies in quality enormously and it is a postcode lottery whether you live with access to a good school or not. Good education benefits the whole of society. If that can be provided in a state system, then the pressure for independent schools would dissipate. Parents of children at independent schools don’t have two heads and the majority are not out to ‘game’ the system. They want what every other parent wants (well, most anyway) which is the best for their kids. Kids are all different and thrive in different environments.

Our school provides over £1million in bursaries every year to provide places for bright kids who would thrive in that environment - highly selective, working at a fast pace - that’s money that we as parents pay for, as we pay fees and our taxes which also go towards paying for the state provision.

Injustice, my arse. Instead of attacking the independent sector, much of which works incredibly well, why aren’t you attacking what the actual f@ck is going on in the state system? The draconian punishments and isolation for the slightest element of ‘insubordination’. The lack of funding; the appalling morale? Why aren’t you in schools supporting with reading practice, or buying books for the library, or raising money, or lobbying your MP? I’ve done all that, and more for years. Stop talking from ignorance and go and look at independent schools and what they do, and how they are doing it.

What is the definition of " not great"?

State secondary choice for DS was requires improvement or all boys. The all boys (not selective) gets good academic results but there is no diversity of ethnicity. The feminist in me just did not want DS to go to an all boys.

If Labour abolish independent schools in pursuit of equality of opportunity and one-size fits all then next in line should be;
all single-sex schools
all grammar schools
all faith schools
state boarding schools (you have to be able to pay for the boarding element & some are selective)

Of course the system is unfair.

We need a state education system that is fit for purpose throughout, rather than having high house prices in areas of outstanding schools - another iniquity.

We need to stop schools that receive state funding being selective on state grounds.

More needs to be done surrounding new housing developments and the provision of school places.

Every private school parent should acknowledge the privilege they have in being able to make that choice. I make no apologies for using a system open to us at the time.

Injustice, my arse. Instead of attacking the independent sector, much of which works incredibly well, why aren’t you attacking what the actual f__k is going on in the state system?

I think I am, but I am interested in the entire education system, of which the private sector, and the tax advantages it receives are part of that entire system.

The tone of your post is angry, demonstrates the point I'm making. I'm truly surprised that so many don't recognise that the entire education system is an injustice and leads to a tremendous waste of talent.

Streamed education benefits all. Comprehensive schools yes, but streamed at the earliest opportunity so everyone can learn at an appropriate pace and the teachers can be more effective. Just scrapping stuff makes no sense.

I think most people who can afford to pay their bills are grateful every day. To know my daughters are in good schools which they love and are thriving at - after one had an emotional breakdown and one was being ostracised because she was so bright - I am very grateful I have been able to provide that for them, yes. Here, though, we have zero choice. It was not a choice between state and private it was trying to find them the right environment, and for us independent was the only way. Don’t you think we would love to not be paying fees?????????? To not NEED to do that? Don’t you think most fee-paying parents would love to not feel the need to pay fees?

I am put out yes, because the vitriol aimed at independent schools from ignorance - most have never set foot in one and actually seen or experienced what they do. If they did they would be up in arms more about the shit state system. I am also put out at the hate demonstrated to schoolchildren on a daily basis because of the uniform they wear, including muggings and attacks.

"I'm truly surprised that so many don't recognise that the entire education system is an injustice and leads to a tremendous waste of talent” - how so? Demonstrate your experience and knowledge?

Would it not be easier to just put caps on privately educated people in roles?

So in state funded roles - the BBC, the judiciary, senior civil servants, university places, no more than ten percent from private school?

That is surely where the problem lies- not in people putting kids with SEN in private education because the state education won’t support them?

I'd love to not pay fees! It's worth it though to get away from the utterly depressing mediocrity that is state education and the aggressive, anti education attitudes of some of the parents and kids. Best money I've ever spent.

"Would it not be easier to just put caps on privately educated people in roles?

So in state funded roles - the BBC, the judiciary, senior civil servants, university places, no more than ten percent from private school?"

Noone wants to do that, because often privately educated people are the best for the job.

Personally, I was very bright & very shy. One of three with a lone-parent, so determined to do well at school. I went to a Grammar school. I worked hard and got what I could out of the system. School doesn’t miraculously give you an education and a future - you have to put a lot of effort in which many don’t.

More than the independent system creaming off and giving a fantastic all-round education (God-forbid), why isn’t the conversation focussed on how to engage those children for which school generally is a torture, that for whatever reason, they are unable to engage and find their potential? That’s the real scandal. Those that feel worthless. That have no support. That leave school with nothing. That’s injustice.

That would be active negative prejudice against well educated people, not a meritocracy, and prejudice generally is wrong? Unless it works in the direction you favour?

Yes, your anger is very clear.

most have never set foot in one and actually seen or experienced what they do.

Of course, most people are aware of what they do.

If they did they would be up in arms more about the shit state system.

But you're comparing apples and oranges. Average fees per private school are £17,000 per year. No doubt fees are higher at the top schools. Average fees per secondary school pupil in the state sector is £6,200 per year. Nearly 3 times higher. To make the state sector as good as the private sector, in terms of resources, you'd have to triple the state education budget. The budget for schools is currently about £39 billion. You'd have to make it £107 billion.

We could fill every medicine degree place in the country with suitably qualified and experienced applicants and take no private school applicants whatsoever.

We could fill every senior civil servant role with Oxbridge educated state school people and hire no privately educated people whatsoever.

That would be active negative prejudice against well educated people, not a meritocracy, and prejudice generally is wrong? Unless it works in the direction you favour?

This is the crux, and I think a very important point. No-one with half a brain thinks we live in a meritocracy, because not everyone gets access to the same resources. And of course, if we did discriminate against the products of private education (by setting thresholds at 10%), supporters of private education would be horrified.

Prejudice generally is wrong? Unless it works in the direction you favour?

By jove, I think you've got it.

It would be similar to jobs that are exempt from sex or race discrimination.

If there is a public need for people to have something in common with those they work with or for, then there should be a cap on privately educated people. Doctors should be drawn from all backgrounds.

Of course, most people are aware of what they do
No, they aren't.

I agree with Kokeshi123. What is actually going to happen is that, should Labour be elected, they will remove schools' charitable status (if they can).

Presumably their policy of being against private schools includes even quite niche institutions like the Royal Ballet School, Yehudi Menuhin, schools specifically for pupils with dyslexia and choir schools.

Not all private schools are run along the lines of Eton, Winchester, Harrow etc.

Politics of envy and hate as usual from the left.

So in state funded roles - the BBC, the judiciary, senior civil servants, university places, no more than ten percent from private school?

What about if someone went to a private prep school then state school?
What if the candidate went to school abroad? What about candidates from overseas? Good luck checking on their backgrounds.
What about those who were home educated?
Do all state schools keep records of all their students ever?

We are privately educating our 4 children as we live in London and our local comp is not great, there are frequent knife incidents, disruptive behaviour and large classes. We have incurred debt to do this at times and made huge financial sacrifices even though we both have professional, well paid jobs. Our four DDs are confident, articulate, happy, well rounded and have a diverse range of friends from children of millionaires to those living on a council estate. One of their schools provided close to £2m in bursaries last year and is looking to increase that provision in future. It educates bright children from across London and is highly academically selective. We looked into moving into the catchment of a top girls’ comprehensive and couldn’t afford the house prices. As non church goers faith schools were out. Why are these issues not being addressed? How can taking away our choice to attend private school be right? Why would the kids at the local comp benefit if I had spent the school fee money on a second property or a sports car or expensive holidays? If the schools they attend didn’t exist, my DDs would have tutors, I would work with them all the time, we would have moved into a smaller property if necessary to get them into the top girls’ comprehensive across London. None of that would help raise standards at the poorly achieving state school down the road. I had a piecemeal, under par state education as did my DH and we were determined to achieve despite it, not because of it. We want better for our DDs. Why should we be penalised for this? What about private healthcare? Where does this all end?

Hi lapeste, I’m normally a labour voter but for various reasons at the moment I’m not! I’m more of a centrist than a Corbynite. Will probably vote green or Lib Dem.

It won’t let me copy/paste for some reason it you asked if i feel the same about racism/sexism. I am a feminist and anti-semitism is a large part of why I won’t vote labour. I am white and acknowledge the privilege I get from that, but I hope do my best to stand against racism. So no I don’t feel it’s something we should put up with if that’s what you mean.

But I don’t accept the analogy. When it comes to racism, no one says let’s deal with it by trying to ensure white people suffer racism as well, and bringing down the situation white people face, which is what I perceive shutting private schools to be doing with privately educated kids. We try to deal with it by removing the barriers BME people face, not by putting barriers in the way of white people. That’s what I think should happen with schooling - make state schools as good as possible and bring up the education of those who are state educated (as I was). Don’t bring down those at the top, try to bring up those further down.

*but not it!

Dapple, presumably it would done through the flagging system, the same as is currently done in university admissions?

So you can be flagged separately for both GCSE and A level?

Many people who go to private sixth form could still be flagged for attending a low performing sixth form.

Home educated pupils are still flagged due to postcode.