To think it's unfair to boat Boris Johnson for the state of the NHS

[InkedGreen]

Or the Tories for that matter, labour started with the privatisation of it and the tories carried it on (at a slower pace).

But ultimately the NHS is underfunded because the general public don't want to pay more. Sure lots say they are happy to pay more, but when it actually comes down to it most aren't happy.tp do so. We have a buldge of people reaching retirement age and more tax needs to be paid to have a good health service but no party is talking about increasing taxes to cover health care. What the NHS does with its budget is good, but other countries pay far more per head and get better results.

It isn't just underfunding though. It's also badly run and abused by many people.

I'd blame ALL governments over the past 25 years for not sorting it out.

PFI repayments take up a significant wedge of funding as do the eye watering expensive maintenance contracts that were a lock in with them. Brown peddled these but the tories have had years to either renegoiate these or fund the NHS to make up the loss.

The NHS has been on its knees for many many years. It feels very unsafe to me. I've had dreadful experiences in hospital teh few times either myself or DC have had to be there over the past 20 years and even though my family are light users there always seems to be 9 month waits for initial appointments and cancellations and mix ups.

Things need to change. What annoyed me about the "stressed father" was that it seemed to be a total set up. The dad is a labour activist and in the film I saw he was wired up with a mic and battery pack (which you could see when he turned his back) his spontaneous "outburst" was obvioulsy pre arranged with the MSM.

It seems that the one who really damaged the NHS was Andrew Lansley when he introduced his reforms. So yes, I think you can't blame Boris for not wanting to throw more money at a shit idea.

Having said that, it's all Conservative party policies I'm afraid - so it's all being dismantled quietly.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46827981

Some really good posts. I just don't think any party would have made much difference. People won't vote in someone that will raise taxes.

The stressed dad JOB was claiming was not miked up or set up at all, but I thought he was. Apparently it was a clipboard or something.

I still don't understand the word "buldge" though.

YANBU everyone wants someone else to pay for it all. The population as a whole needs to pay more or manage their expectations.

Labour bears a considerable amount of responsibility for PFI, but the fact is that the Tories have been in power for 9 years now, so the current state of the NHS is very much down to them. While Labour were in power, they invested heavily in the NHS, set waiting time limits and funded staffing. It wasn't perfect and it wasn't enough, but equating it to what the Tories have done - cutting hospital spending, axing the bursaries for nurses in training - there really isn't a comparison. And after 9 years, the Tories deserve every bit of flak they get.

YANBU everyone wants someone else to pay for it all. The population as a whole needs to pay more or manage their expectations.

Is it really just about "paying more" though? Or do vast amounts of inherent wastefulness and mismanagement play a part?

A small part Dongdingdong.

Was it just a coincidence that the local Labour MP was also in the hospital at the same time. I dont think you can blame BJ for the NHS crisis, it's been gradually taken apart for at least 30 years. It's not just recent cuts to funding. It's the hospital closure plans in the 80s, the disaster that was community care, changes to nurse training, changes to doctors hours and gp services, more people needing care, closure of community and mental health units, the list goes on. It's easy to kick out when you're in a stressful situation but the staff help thousands of lives every day and get no thanks.

Boris is this weeks monkey at the top of the tree. The buck stops with him.

Splinter, what do you think he should do

YANBU everyone wants someone else to pay for it all. The population as a whole needs to pay more or manage their expectations

Exactly. The IFS released a study this year which wasn't reported much in the press. The highlight is that "43 per cent of adults do not pay income tax, up from 38 per cent in 2010. By contrast, the top one per cent of earners are now paying 27 per cent of the nation’s income tax"

Of course income taxation is just one stream of revenue for the government but we have hell of a lot of people out there demanding more NHS/government/benefits without actually paying in any share.
So what model do we want in this country? We all chip in a bit more, or expect that high earning 1% to shoulder even more of the burden??

When a political party runs on a manifesto of a 2% income tax rise and freezing the personal allowance and/or increasing tax on wealth (inheritance/capital gains etc), will YOU vote for them?

Article (paywall) www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/05/record-number-adults-pay-no-tax-top-one-per-cent-earners-shoulder/

The Tories have been in power for a long time now, I think blaming them is a absolutely fine. Not everyone votes "to pay as little tax as possible ", generally people will pay if they feel it necessary and see the money well spent.

I'd like to point out that the Tories began the privatisation by bringing in Hospital Trusts.

And personally I have no idea why people find tax abhorrent. I am willing to pay more tax and most certainly would vote to. HOWEVER, I would much prefer that the burden of tax-paying be shifted to those who earn more. The cleaner in an office pays out a larger proportion of his earnings in tax than the Chief Executive who employs him does, for various reasons, including legal loopholes that could be tightened were it not for the fact that most government ministers are probably using them.

Finally, putting Boris Johnson in a boat and casting him adrift somewhere to the west of the Scilly Isles sounds like a plan to me.

@Hollycatberry

Exactly. The IFS released a study this year which wasn't reported much in the press. The highlight is that "43 per cent of adults do not pay income tax, up from 38 per cent in 2010. By contrast, the top one per cent of earners are now paying 27 per cent of the nation’s income tax"

The top 1% hold 22% of the countries wealth, so that doesn't seem wildly disproportionate. Income tax isn't the only tax, those people not paying income tax will be paying VAT for example. It's almost impossible not to make some contribution.

Well I still don't agree it's wholely their fault.

No one is ever wholly to blame for something in these situations as there are always events that lead up to where we are today.

But BJ is the Prime Minister, he is the person who at this moment has the power to enact change. There is no point complaining to Tony Blair about it or giving him grief, it would make zero difference to where we are.

So while I think it is largely a problem created by the Tories, that is irrelevant, he needs to do something and he needs to do it yesterday. They could start by removing the tuition they've recently imposed on Student Nursing degrees.

YANBU everyone wants someone else to pay for it all. The population as a whole needs to pay more or manage their expectations.

Thank you! That's exactly my point. People say they want to pay more tax, but really I bet a vanishingly small amount actually do want to.

He’s the Prime Minister. He’s lied, schemed and betrayed in order to be there too. Even when the father of a sick baby was berating him, he was still lying through his teeth! The buck stops with him. If he doesn’t like that, he’s welcome to stop being Prime Minister any time he likes.

pmsl at still blaming labour for the mess the tories have made, they have been in power for years.
I thought that man was brilliant. about time someone tells it as it is.
poor old Boris my arse.

It's survival of the richest, and designed this way so it could be privatized.

They don't care about the poorest who all their cuts have hit the hardest.

He’s in charge and the one who can enact change. Therefore if it’s crap it’s his responsibility.

We’ve been pushed into debt this month because we’re having to pay for private speech therapy for DS. He is theoretically under the care of the NHS speech therapy service, but they have no budget and provide no therapy whatsoever. If we weren’t paying, he’d get nothing until he started school. We have savings we can use to sort ourselves out and family support, but we’re struggling. That is down to the choices of the Tories - and Boris has been influential in that party for years. He was a cabinet minister ffs - he’s not just stepped fresh into the job last week. The NHS has been crippled and my son is one of the many paying the price for that. And I do blame Boris and his blue rosette wearing cronies. I hate them. They’ve written my son off at the age of 3, and I hate them for it.

People say they want to pay more tax, but really I bet a vanishingly small amount actually do want to.

I would happily pay more tax if it genuinely would make a difference to things. The problem is, I don't trust politicians as far as I can throw them, and worry the money would simply be "spaffed up the wall", to use Boris's disgusting turn of phrase.

Also, I agree with comments that the buck stops with the PM. But he's been in power for a matter of months and even when in cabinet, he's never been anything to do with health.

I was impressed that he was at least out and about seeing the situation for himself and engaging with the public for better or worse.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for two years and if nothing's improved by then, I will lay the blame at his door.