To worry about my Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde 4 year old

[kiltedsheep]

Hello,

I'm aware this is quite a common problem but am still hoping for advice!

DS isn't quite Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, but he's not far off. He's just turned 4 and is a bright little button - he was a pretty fluent reader at 3 and a half (I read him a lot of books all the time, and he just picked things up) and is insatiably curious about everything and obsessed with dinosaurs.

He attends nursery 3 days a week and the nursery staff rave about him. Whilst he's shy around his peers and much prefers talking to and playing with grown-ups, the staff tell me he's polite and very well-behaved.

But when he's at home, DS is a bloody nightmare m. He can't seem to cope with transitions - be it switching off the telly or time to eat his lunch - and shouts 'Nonono! I don't want to do it so I won't do it' in an almost hilariously petulant way. Disappointment of almost any sort (e.g. I shut the front door before he gets to see the postman) leads to absolutely hysterical screaming.

My Dad, who's just arrived to visit us from abroad, is pretty horrified by this. Yesterday, in the middle of a tantrum, DS hit my dad (albeit very gently) and I shouted at DS, who was inconsolable. I said there would be no TV (which he'd been watching at the time) ever again unless he apologised to Granda. He screamed and sobbed and he said he couldn't apologise, and this went on for hours until my DH came home from work. DH put on his 'I'm cross and disappointed' voice and frogmarched him to Granda's room and he apologised, where DS finally apologised, sobbing and shaking.

My Dad is worried about DS's behaviour and says I need to withdraw affection from DS, or else DS will just think his tantrums are acceptable. I don't want to do this. It's clear to me that, on some level, DS knows this isn't acceptable behaviour; he certainly recognises from books etc that tantrums aren't the way to go. Crucially, DS doesn't get what he wants if he kicks off.

But, as my dad says, how can he can behave well at nursery and badly at home, unless he thinks his mum is a soft touch? My Dad thinks that empathising with DS's rage and disappointment at home is just reinforcing these episodes, and that DS is clever enough to know he can get away with treating his mum badly.

It might also be worth noting that I sometimes suffer from depression - although it's controlled by medication - and DS's extreme emotions worry me because I recognise my own strong emotions within them (I used to self-harm to cope). DS already bites his nails and gets worried about various things a lot, and I really don't want to exacerbate his anxiety.

A further point is that I'm reluctant to take advice from my dad because my mum used to hit me as a child whenever I got 'out of line', and whilst he did his best to protect me when he was around, he often wasn't around. Unsurprisingly, I now have an amazingly shit relationship with my mum.

AIBU to worry about my son?
AIBU to reject my Dad's advice, even though I really don't know what I'm doing with parenting?

Help!

These sound more like melt downs than tantrums. Horrible to suggest withdrawing affection from an already anxious small child.

It sounds fairly normal behaviour to me. Your DS has just turned four, of course he can’t regulate his behaviour around disappointment and anger yet.

Love and accept him. Give him the language for his feelings (e.g. I am wondering if you are very angry that you can’t watch any more tv now) and show him how to communicate those feelings.

Also, to not because you’re a soft touch that your son shows his true emotions, it’s that he trusts you with them and it’s tiring holding them in at school.

Hi - this sounds so much like my daughter who has just been assessed and has ASD. Like your son advanced reader, well behaved at school. At home major melt downs and anxiety over small issues. Took me a while to piece it together. I am now attending parenting workshops to gain strategies to help me help her to process things. Your post really resonates with me, maybe read around ASD or Aspergers as it used to be called. Xxx

Sounds like perfectly normal 4yo behavior to me. They can put on a good front when at nursery/ school and then are comfortable to let it all out at home.
More hugs and love would be appropriate rather than shouting and withdrawing?
Also try for a more relaxed home setting. If you know he likes to see the postman, let him see the postman. Tantrums I tend to ignore if there is no harm being caused.
Hitting etc would be the ones to crack down on, however, after a 'full day' of distress over lightly smacking your dad I doubt the child learnt anything from being forced to apologise. Why did he have that particular tantrum?

My daughter at 4 had temper tantrums a plenty, still talked about by the family (!) and has turned into a caring kind teacher she like your son just couldn’t verbalise her emotions as they were only 4!
Sounds like your doing a great job he is doing well academically and socially at nursery, ignore the withdraw affection , can you even imagine that?
I read on here there’s a book how to talk so children listen might be worth a look it gets a lot of praise on mn Also try giving countdowns for transitioning like switching off tv etc so he knows it’s coming soon
Don’t doubt yourself just repeat it’s only a phase!

So he could read at 3.5? Actual reading, as opposed to memorising the story. That’s obviously quite unusual in such a young child. It sounds like it could be hyperlexia, which tends to go hand in hand with autism (I have experience, my son started reading at around 3y9m and is awaiting an ASD assessment).

Some of the other things you describe: the dinosaur obsession, preferring adult company, difficulty with transitions, meltdowns - all point towards ASD. The fact he behaves well at nursery and badly at home is also quite textbook - he’s managing to cope with nursery even though he might find the social side difficult (not to mention the noise, etc) and explodes like a bottle of fizzy pop once he’s safe at home. It’s NOT that he’s choosing to behave badly because you’re a soft touch. Ignore your dad. Withdrawing affection is just cruel beyond words.

Does the nursery have a SENCO? I would raise all of your concerns with them. If they aren’t receptive then your GP or HV could advise you re. next steps.

My daughter loved dinosaurs too, had major meltdown it’s not always ASD
can children not just have meltdownswithout someone suggesting ASD diagnosis anymore? .

Thanks for all your responses so far - I'm very grateful

To be fair, ASD might well be on the cards, as he's really not good at playing with his peer group (not in terms of bad behaviour - he'd just rather talk to adults or read a book, normally). His nursery have picked up on this and say that if he doesn't seem to have improved by Christmas, they'll see if they can get a therapist in just to observe him.

And also to be fair, ASD might well not be on the cards, as I started reading at 3.5 (and yes, proper books, not just memorising stuff) and I'm definitely not on the spectrum!

I'm just grateful for all your views. He's such a lovely, bright little lad - I really don't want to screw him by handing the tantrums/meltdowns the wrong way.

My DD (4.5) went thru an awful stage around 3-4 months ago which she’s sort of coming out of now.

Definitely don’t withdraw affection, sometimes with meltdowns a good tight hug can help actually. With anxiety a lot of people find weighted blankets helpful.

Hold the line firmly but be warm - is my advice. It’s painful and I have had huge HUGE stand offs with DD but eventually she improved her behaviour.

He does sound a bit anxious but we did have a lot of this behaviour when DD was this age. Particularly if tired. She was hitting, spitting and biting.
Some things that helped:
-House rules eg no biting. I made a chart cos funny enough if the chart says it it is respected far more than if mummy says it
-Reward jar-to encourage me to point out good behaviour which earns a pom pom and multiples of ten earns a prize as I was in a negative cycle of criticising
Planners-We have always had a chart for routines you can get planners for days of the week and stuff so they can anticipate what happens next.
We use alarms to signify moving on to the next thing. He could ring a bell?
Lots of warnings of course that “X pleasurable activity will end when alarm goes off”
DD has always been a street angel house devil. It’s good he can be himself with you, he trusts you. They hold it together all day and let go at home which is good.
Ask your GP if you’re worried

Agree with everyone else, you don't withdraw affectiom from a 4 yo as punishment.

Have you spoken to school about his behaviour at home?

Often keeping it all in at scho is SO hard that all they can do is let it loose at home where its safe. I know quite a few friends who have kids with ASD who do this,bit I think it's fairly typical in NT kids too at this age.

Why did he have that particular tantrum?

My dad and I were talking while DS was trying to watch CBeebies. DS complained at first ('Stop it! I can't hear anything!'), and I explained that, if he wanted us to be quieter, he needed to ask nicely. But then he just shouted 'nonono!' and hit my dad.

I should say that it's not as if DS has a particular attachment to the postman! That's just an example of an irrational, one-off tantrum. DS just decided, after I'd taken the parcel and shut the door, that he was desperate to see the postman. I even opened the door again but the postie had legged it.

Also, DS attends nursery 3 days a week, but these meltdowns/tantrums occur also on days when he doesn't attend (like yesterday!). But I do think he sees home as a safe space.

And so he should.

There was no mumsnet when I had mine for advice
I just used to ignore the hysterics on the floor and then when she stopped quick right let’s do xyz and cuddle for doing well as soon as she did anything else!
when they are bright their brains work faster than their ability to explain at this age so it results in outbursts.

He does sound anxious.

My son, nearly 5, has been like this. Same early/precocious reader (read fluently at just turned four), big meltdowns (not tantrums). Especially during transitions (eg when picking up from teatime club after preschool) they’d last for an hour, raging and raging. Or when he was disappointed, when plans changed. It was like he couldn’t cope with it. I think it’s fairly common knowledge children contain it all and behave well when in another setting and let it all out once at home.

About four months ago we went to see our council’S educational psychologist who was very helpful. My son has other things going on (obsessions with bar codes, number plates, he’s excellent at numbers).

Over the past few months he has matured amazingly and we haven’t had a big meltdown for a while, touch wood

Ps the edu pysch mentioned Aspergers as a possible thing with my son. Worth having a good google on that. I feel that with my son as time goes on he is getting better at learning how to cope with stuff. A very firm routine works well for him eg he knows we only have the TV on after nursery/school on Mon, Wed and Fri. And we don’t ever have the TV on on weekend mornings so no point asking (as he knows it’s no).

Withdraw affection?
Gosh, I hate this advice from anyone. It's very old school and won't teach your son to manage his tantrums better. I'm not actually sure what it would teach your son? That you dont care? That his feelings and emotions arent valid?

I'm not quite sure about the mental development of a 4 year old yet but I would wager that it's not quite developed enough yet to self regulate his emotions and see things in the same proportions we do.

I would try my best to help him regulate, do my best to let him know I'm listening, discipline him gently if needed (I'm reading Sarah Ockwell Smith's books at the moment) and wait for the development to kick in.

The reason he can do it at home and not with nursery is because he trusts you more so than the nursery staff and he knows you far better.

It may also be all of his anxieties from the day being unleashed in his safe space I.e. home.

Trust your instincts OP. You know your son.
If you want to do some reading I highly recommend 'Gentle Discipline' by Sarah Ockwell Smith

Some of those behaviours sound typical of most children but some do seem alot like ASD (or Aspergers as it once was). I would recommend seeing your GP or HV and sharing these challenges with them. No one here, myself included can say for sure what it is or isn't. Hell, sometimes even professionals cannot agree! So do not be alarmed but do consider following it up as the behaviour is obviously causing stress and anxiety for your child and family.

Regardless of that, please please do not follow your Dads advice and withhold affection. That is totally inappropriate. You need to provide extra reassurances and support, be dependable and predictable and all the things I am sure you are.

Firm boundaries which are set and non negotiable and a routine supported possibly with visual cues may also help. Have a read about "now and then" strategies and visual timetables. Also the coke can theory may help explain outburst. Consider keeping an ABC behaviour chart for a couple of days to identify triggers and reasons for behaviour. Google those phrases and you will find resources and information on what they are and how they work.

Just because a child is bright and intelligent doesn't mean they are always able to communicate their feelings and needs. Regardless of the speculation you may see on here about ASD/not ASD the above strategies will help alot of children regardless. Meanwhile I would suggest making an appointment with your GP or HV.

Good luck

Don’t do what your Dad suggested, but I do think you need to find a new way that is kinder. Hours and hours of crying and sobbing because he wouldn’t say sorry? Utterly out of proportion IMO, he needs help with his big emotions not being forced to say words he doesn’t mean after hours of distress. His “punishment” was so dramatic, and not proportionate to being rude. If you’d said you’d pause the programme or turn it off for 5 minutes until he had taken some big breaths and calmed down or whatever then it may relate but no television ever again? No wonder his feelings were so out of control.

He sounds very much like my DS was at that age (early talking & reading, world expert on dinosaurs and preferring adult company) - although my DS was the reverse of your DS in that he was pretty well behaved at home and difficult at nursery. He subsequently went on to get a diagnosis of ASD at age 6. He is now an adult, studying at Uni, living away from home and holding down a job in the holidays.

Please please dont withdraw affection. No body who specialises in any child behaviour will ever ever tell you to do this. Firstly because it's not nice, and secondly because it wont work.

Also adults after an argument need a bit of time to calm down and reflect before they apologise usually and a child is no different

You can withdraw attention but not affection.

Also your reaction was over the top. No TV for ever if he didnt apologise? Would you really have followed that through? I doubt it and your son probably knew it as well. It comes across as quite harsh to me.

Have you read any books about small child behaviour? One I read when we were going through a tough phase with my daughter who is a similar age, said

Work with the child to come up with strategies. Eg I notice you get upset when the tv gets turned off. What ideas can we come up with to make this easier? And see what they say.

Give them notice. This might be a 5 minute warning. Or a timer. Say he can have half an hour of tv and when the timer rings it goes off.

Give them choices. He can decide when the timer goes on. Then its 'the tv is going off, do you want to push the button or shall I'?

Make it fun eg have a daft 'bye bye TV dance or pretend to be one of the characters he is watching

I found it does work to an extent (though my daughter is NT so may not work if he has ASD for example) but I do find it very very difficult in the heat of the moment so need to sometimes think of strategies in advance.

I think it's just about coming up with strategies. My daughter just cries when she is being told off and all she takes in is 'you shouted at me'. If I give her the same telling off but in a calm voice while cuddling her she takes in the lesson a lot better. It's hard as totally against my instincts

I wish there was some sort of social club for 3 or 4 year old palaeontology experts. No doubt they'd all get on like a house on fire.

@OrangeSlices998 I take your point on the harshness of the punishment, but to be honest, I don't think it was the lack of TV that upset him so much; I think it was having to say sorry to someone he didn't know very well (my dad) for something he knew he'd done wrong.

Yesterday was the first time I'd let the tantrum/meltdown (not sure of correct vocab here) continue for so long. I waited until he'd calmed down and explained (calmly) that needed to say sorry to Granda, because Granda was sad about being hit. There wasn't any mention of the TV by this point. But the meltdown would start again because he didn't want to apologise to Granda. And I'd leave him, and he'd calm down, and then the whole thing repeated until DH came home.

I won't try that again, because as various of you have said, what did he learn from all that? And both he and i hated every minute of it.

DH was struck by the fact that DS was happy to apologise to me - and he did so, profusely, God bless him - but not to Granda. 'I just can't do it', he kept saying.

The poor little lad. It must suck being 4 years old.

Just as a side note - my mum used withdrawal of affection as a way of managing my behaviour (nothing too terrible, I remember one occasion where I was arguing with my two years younger brother and wouldn't just 'stop it' when she said so). It has left me with a lot of problems regarding lack of affection in others. I'm sure you weren't going to do this anyway, but it's the kind of mental cruelty that scars a child.

@AmIRightOrAMeringue Point taken, as per my post just now. Although I would love to have enormous reserves of patience and clearheaded was, I am exhausted, as I have a 4 month old baby who is still waking up to feed every 2.5 hours. But I will try harder not to lose my temper and make disproportionately harsh threats.

My DD (recently turned 5) is exactly like this - lovely much of the time, good at school, but massive tantrums over minor things including hitting and hurting me when she is cross. I'm not a soft touch either. I don't think she has ASD though I'm not an expert!

I think in her case it's a combination of immaturity in regulating emotions, emotional tiredness from school and all its social relationships .. and possibly an element of being a little bugger a bit headstrong!