to ask for advice re PIL not having wills

[OneAboveAndOneBelow]

My PIL are lovely, I've been married for 15 years so know them well although our relationship is polite and friendly rather than super-close.

We visited recently and were talking about wills - we are trying to draw up our wills, it's been to-do since we had children etc. They said they didn't have any in place and hadn't really thought about it. I was quite shocked as they're late 60s/70s and retired, MIL looked after her mum until a few years ago when she passed away.

I think they think (as we did) if you're married and just want everything to go to the other spouse you don't really need a will. I mentioned that it's a real headache if you die without one or if you both go but I didn't feel it was my place to press it as didn't want to seem money-grabbing or morbid!

They are quite financially naive so I do worry a bit (their mortgage is paid off since FIL's parents died a while ago). I honestly don't care what they leave to whom - they live modestly and I don't think have a great deal of savings - I just worry about sorting it all out should the worst happen. AIBU to suggest that DH and possibly his brother gently suggest they get it sorted out, or is it none of my business and/or will it all work itself out even if they don't have wills? My parents have done theirs.

What a shower if shit that’s left behind 13 years later

Can people explain why not having a will caused a problem in their case? I can only presume that it's because the distribution of assets dictated by intestacy rules was problematic, which wouldn't affect me, but if there's some other problem, I want to know.

Having lived through being executor more than once when Wills were present, that was bad enough, doing it without is lunacy. It is the unexpected that would cause a problem.

Why would you not want to make your wishes known after you die? What if your children fall out? It's no good saying they won't, you don't know. So you die with a mortgage outstanding, what a nightmare to sort that without a Will. You need a Grant of Administration, a legal document required to represent someone who dies without a Will so that you/your children can collect and distribute Assets. I know someone whose Dad died without a Will, a year letter they were still waiting for this Document.

What if you both, god forbid, die unexpectedly. Your guardianship of the children won't be official, your children will bear the brunt of yout foolishness of not bothering to make a Will, a process that could be sorted out in half an hour at a Solicitors.

I want to make everything as ordered, transparent and easy as possible for my children when we die. Not put them through stress, worry and pressure.

*A year later. (not letter)

Thanks for everyone's posts! I'm possibly even more confused than I was!

Can people explain why not having a will caused a problem in their case?

I think this is what i need to know so we can give a good reason.

All siblings are on very good terms and likely to stay that way, PIL very unlikely to have any money offshore! They live very simply and we know a bit about their finances from helping out with a couple of things (and they have lent money to us in the past when it made sense). Only asset is the house and car. Surviving spouse would definitely stay in the house for as long as possible.

soon thanks for the CAB link, I'll have a read.

Hm that CAB link just lists what happens if you die intestate which I doubt they'll have a problem with. Not sure but I'm assuming they gave a joint bank account and beneficial joint tendency tenancy on house so nothing obviously needs to urgently change, according to that!

Yes, I agree the CAB link is very reassuring. It’s also against all the advice I’ve ever had, but maybe because we have a higher value estate and dependents I’ve always thought it vital.

Don’t assume on the bank accounts or joint tenancy. Especially if they are an old school couple. I thought my grandparents were modern and was very very surprised when I discovered that everything was in Grandad’s name. It was just the way they did it.

The good thing about a will is that there is a named executor whose job it is to sort everything out: if there is no named executor then someone has to apply to do it before anything can get sorted. Your PIL might prefer to name one of the children (or two or more) to be executors to take the strain off the surviving spouse. If you know you’re going to be executor and relations are good you can get an idea of the estate before death so there are no surprises and difficulties after death.

if no will [[https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-jan-apr-2017/when-there-is-no-will-who-is-the-personal-representative/]]

More of a concern for me is no POA in place. Dementia is about to become the leading cause of death in old age; we should all be prepared to hand our affairs over to someone else to manage for us if we lose our mental capacity.

Tbh I'd be sorting POA before wills (unless there's some super complicated estate ahead). That is an absolute nightmare if they end up needing decisions made that they don't have the capacity to make

This. It's very important.

Also funeral wishes....make sure your nearest and dearest know what they are. And how they will be paid for.
An in law wants an all singing, all dancing religious funeral ( although she last set foot in a church in 1971)....but has no savings or funeral plan.

All siblings are on very good terms and likely to stay that way, PIL very unlikely to have any money offshore! They live very simply and we know a bit about their finances from helping out with a couple of things (and they have lent money to us in the past when it made sense). Only asset is the house and car. Surviving spouse would definitely stay in the house for as long as possible

All siblings stay on good terms, yes, until something like money comes between them. Surviving spouse might not want to move. All sorts of scenarios happen when either grief or greed overtakes them.

Call me an old cynic but I've seen it before.

As I've said before I cannot get my head round why a sensible couple would make an informed decisision not to make a Will. It's more work and stress for those that are left. And selfish in my book.

As soon as we had DCs we made a will and have updated it since they became adults. I want to make it easy for them.

Can you explain what the additional work and stress is if the outcome of a will would be exactly the same as the intestate laws dictate?

(Just not sure what the solicitor adds...) It would likely be us and BIL dealing with anything, so good to be prepared! DH says he'll talk to them about it in any case, but he's not super clued up either.

We're definitely doing our own wills as we have young kids.

The Age UK website has got very clear and helpful advice about wills, POA and executors.

Thanks, it looks helpful for when you've decided to make a will but again doesn't really explain why it's necessary if you just want to do as per the intestate default?

I agree, the only advice I can find assumes the right thing to do is make a will. There are no arguments I can find that say it’s not necessary.

Given their ages I think that it is really important for DH and BIL to sit down with them and ask them to sort out

1. Power of Attorney as PP mentioned
2. Medical wishes - ie when and when not to resucitate
3. Wills - checking how the house is held (ie joint tenants or tenants in common), any pension reversions, joint and non joint bank accounts etc and also a letter of wishes over how personal assets are to be distributed eg they might wish to give a personal item eg jewellery to godchildren or a best friend without putting it into the actual will.
4. Funeral wishes and how the funerals will be funded (eg insurance or from bank accounts)

Depending on the relationship between them it might be worth presenting it to FIL as making sure MIL will be OK and able to manage her affairs if he died first etc.....

In a will you stipulate who you give power to be your executor when you die. The executor is responsible for all the admin with the estate - changing names of things, closing and opening bank accounts, that sort of thing.

No will = no executor in place so you have to go through the hassle of deciding who is going to be the executor, apply to be executor etc. The assumption is that the spouse will be the executor - if MIL died could FIL manage that? and vice versa? Probably yes at the moment, they're both quite young, so it's not a massive issue right now I'd say but that might change in 10 years or so.

You do not need to go to a solicitor to do a will - you can DIY very easily and safely for a simple will, buy one from W H Smith or download something online. If it's a straightforward estate then the will can be pretty simple. Have a look in WHSmith at the packs there to get an idea.

POA is more expensive but hugely important.

Some of the information here about intestate laws & automatic inheritance is misleading, it depends on which jurisdiction the death is in, what legal code the will is in, where the assets are in the world.

In my family we had my DH having to help out a family member who is the executor to his Scottish (so, Scots law) family members estate, where legitimate kids inherit part of the estate unless they formally decline it... This family member died without a will, joint account turned out to be a single with named access for his girlfriend, she couldn't even pay for the telephone bill on DD because they froze the account once he died! They had a house in Spain & then investments based in England, who rejected the Scottish equivalent to an English Grant of Probate because their bereavement team didn't recognize it at first... Total nightmare, very expensive, and 5 - 6 years later it still isn't all fully resolved! Last year the executor had to appoint a UK based lawyer familiar with the Spanish system, who charges £££s hourly. It's not a large estate that can sustain a lot of hourly lawyer fees over the next few months.

The lesson here is: make a will, people!

DH has had to step back providing support for the estate.. the executor is just having to throw money at the problem to get it resolved once and for all.

My husband died without a Will
The house was in joint names, just transferred to me.
The bank froze his account, but not joint account.

I informed all creditors/debtors who mainly just wanted death certificate.
I applied for letters of admin( commonly known as probate, but very much misinterpreted) it’s just authority to deal with anything in deceased’s name.
Received in 3 weeks.
Life insurance paid out within a week (joint policy)
Other pensions/hmrc dragged out for a while. No IHT to pay, nothing between spouses.

Transfer between spouses is simple. Other scenarios maybe not.

After my FIL died, DH and I both updated our wills and are in the process of sorting out POAs for each other.

Life's hard enough as it is after a bereavement without walking through loads of red tape. FIL left a complex will leaving %ages of his assets to people, leaving more to DH as the executor than SIL and it caused all sorts of shit tbh.

I'd get your DH to say he's really worried that they are going to struggle with it all at such an awful time and it could mean financial uncertainty for the one left behind while probate gets sorted.