To wonder if it will get to the point where the EU will make the decision for us?

[TheoriginalLEM]

Can they do that? Can they say enough is enough, just fuck off now?

Is Brexit undeliverable? And based on that should we have a second referendum?

I voted to remain but right now I just want this over

Well, the UK has told them we are leaving and the date will come to pass, so if no-one does anything about that (or the EU does not accept any further extension) then we will leave without a deal. The EU does not have to do anything to compel that.

The UK must be a laughing stock in Europe now.

I am abroad. The UK looks like chaos at the moment. It was featured on the news after reporting of the Hong Kong riots for democracy.

Apparently Macron was very reluctant to grant us an extension last time, so he could veto and we'd be out.

I can't understand "No deal" though. Surely it just means things will chunter on until each individual aspect is resolved, or not?

Not surprised marcon was reluctant to grant an extension. We are still no further forward.

They can't force us to stay. I think members can be expelled but this is usually a long process with lots of voting, and since Britain has already triggered article 50, it's a bit redundant and I doubt the EU would bother.

They can reject deals and can refuse to renegotiate. I don't think they could force a no-deal(?) in our current circumstances but happy to be corrected on that point.

When the 31 Oct date was set, it was on the understanding the extra time was to get the WA through parliament. Not fuck about for another 6 months, then go back two weeks before saying "give us a different deal or we walk". We can continue to bollocks about all we want, but we triggered Article 50 and the EU can tell us to leave on 31 October with or without a deal - and this was just the Withdrawal Agreement, not even a trade deal which was still to be negotiated!

We don't hold the power here, something Boris doesn't seem to grasp.

Yes we need a deal more than they need us to have a deal.

And no deal do s not mean things continue as they are. It means we lose a lot of things already in place with nothing to replace the .

"No Deal" means we haven't agreed the terms on which we leave. It doesn't mean the old terms continue.

It'll be when we go asking for an extension.

There's adverts on the radio in Ireland saying that in the event of a No Deal Brexit, a British licence wont be legal in Ireland and drivers need to swap their licence before 31st October or apply for an Irish learner permit and insurance may be affected.

I havent really been tuned into the Brexit arguments for a couple of weeks but I think there is a definite shift in people believing there will be a no deal with no backstop.

I don't think no deal will equal things staying the same, but that the negotiations (arguing )on each individual isdue will continue separately? Maybe that woukd be better?? I voted to remain and would do so again but we need resolution one way or another and I cannot see the benefit in dragging it out.

Negotiations one by one would take decades. It took 8 years to negotiate one deal with Japan by the EU. One of the main reasons for being in the EU is that you have greater bargaining power as a bloc than you have as one small country negotiating against much larger economies like the US and China. After Brexit, everyone will know we cant go on for years paying WTO tariffs, so will slap a deal that benefits them in front of us and say take it or leave it. India have already done that and so will the US.
There was a really interesting programme on Radio 4 just now about how Poland sees us. It made some really interesting points on Brexit. They pointed out something that has irritated me for years as someone who descended from India who's great grandparents fought as part of the British empire but didnt really relate it to Brexit. That certain sections of British society and the press have peddled the 'Plucky little Britain fought off the fascists all alone' when in reality, the Polish Air Force and thousands of soldiers from across the Empire were involved fighting side by side. Britain would not have won the war on their own. That 'We won the war' attitude has led to Brexit. We didn't win the war without partners and allies.We cannot succeed without collaboration and solidarity with others. We've pissed off our closest neighbours and allies. Nobody else is on our side. They are on their own side. Ireland have the rest of the EU on their side, as do all the other countries in the EU. They don't 'need us more than we need them' because they have each other, along with 700 trade deals with the rest of the world. We dont.

@noodlenosefraggle
Very well said

They could refuse to have any more extensions. This would leave the UK to exit crash out, try to revive Mays deal or revoke. It’s not the same as making the decision for us but they would prevent the indefinite (practically speaking if not literally) extensions which many MPs are fighting for. They should have accepted the deal months ago and slowly and methodically detached the during the grace period it created.

Agree with noodle. Pretty much no point trying to negotiate a trade deal afterwards with the EU. Look at the madness they’re trying with Australia at the moment.

I listened to that Radio 4 series as well - it's called 'As Others See us'. Excellent - and, it has to be said, rather depressing at the moment.

Is Brexit undeliverable? And based on that should we have a second referendum?

Eh? If it can't be delivered what's the point of another referendum? Or would it just have one option - it's deliverable, innit tick to agree - that's the only option?

Surely it just means things will chunter on until each individual aspect is resolved, or not

No it doesn't because a lot of the things that are advantages of the EU membership and that are causing difficulties are things that are available to EU members only.

If we aren't a member of the EU, we aren't included and we have to be treated differently (maybe WTO maybe even not that, I'm not sure).

For example, our passports allow freedom of movement etc for EU citizens. If we are not EU citizens, we lose that.

We can buy goods over the internet without import duties due to free trade within the EU. When we are outside the EU, we will have to pay import duty, like when you buy something from the US for example.

Plus loads and loads of other stuff. It's affecting one of my work clients badly because they want to import some dangerous substances from another EU country, but it's something that's made to order and takes a long time to make. They are panicking because they don't know when the thing will be ready and whether or not we will still be in the EU when it is. There are all sorts of safety and security considerations about transporting the thing that are quite easy when we are in the EU, but if we are not, it's much more complicated to import the thing.

Plus they then have to export the old worn out but still very dangerous thing that the new thing is to replace and they have been told that they are not allowed to try and export the old thing if we have just left the EU because the powers that be cannot allow it to be stuck in border queues. They can't bring in the new thing unless they know that they will be able to safely send back the old thing as they simply cannot keep the old and new thing at their site at the same time for more than a day or two.

Plus if they don't get to swap the old and the new thing over there are huge knock on effects for their business and in turn possibly for the entire country because it could cause shortages of some vital products that lives depend on that is used and produced in very large numbers by a few fairly small extremely specialist suppliers.

Those are the sorts of things that are at risk by leaving the EU without a deal.

The point of another referendum is that we only need a small percentage of leave voters to come to their senses and realise that they didn't have a fucking clue what they were voting for and vote to remain instead and the whole sorry mess will go away.

Surely it just means things will chunter on until each individual aspect is resolved, or not?

This is apparently a common misunderstanding. "No deal" doesn't mean nothing will happen overnight, it means the precise opposite, lots of things change overnight.

The point of a "deal" is to allow things to continue more or less the same for a while.

@BarbaraofSeville SO what would be on the referendum ballot - what question and what options?

Well they could ask the same question, and people actually think about what they are voting for.

Do they want to give up all the advantages that being members of the EU gives them, like free trade, freedom of movement, consumer protection, employment rights, etc etc and trust our current government to negotiate new arrangements when they aren't bound by EU directives?

That was the second referendum. You must be much younger than me.