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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder how Labour’s Right to Buy on privately rented houses would work?

421 replies

Bearbehind · 02/09/2019 10:49

Just read something this morning about Labour proposing Right to Buy on privately rented properties - how would that actually work?

How can they force a private landlord to sell at a discounted rate?

Also, if one of the requirements is you have to have been renting the property for several years, that’s just going to lead to less secure tenancies because landlords will make sure tenants cannot qualify for this.

It seems like a bonkers idea to me

OP posts:
Passthecherrycoke · 03/09/2019 10:17

“Cherry coke seems to think that if central government use public money to compensate housing associations or councils for this loss somehow that equals no loss. Which show the unfortunate lack of economic sense in some of the public sector.”

Let me get this right. Are you claiming that homes England DO NOT repay housing associations the RTB discount they’ve given the tenant?

Passthecherrycoke · 03/09/2019 10:17

OP we’re going round in circles. No one thinks that apart from you, using a 3 year old article.

Bearbehind · 03/09/2019 10:26

cherry there is literally only you who thinks the government would use funds to move the wealthiest private renters into home ownership ina private LL RTB scheme

Everyone else assumes the whole point is that the landlords take the hit

Until you can provide evidence to the contrary, I’m sticking with the most obvious answer

OP posts:
Juells · 03/09/2019 10:27

“Cherry coke seems to think that if central government use public money to compensate housing associations or councils for this loss somehow that equals no loss. Which show the unfortunate lack of economic sense in some of the public sector.”

Let me get this right. Are you claiming that homes England DO NOT repay housing associations the RTB discount they’ve given the tenant?

That isn't what's being said in the paragraph you quoted. Not from my reading, anyway. Surely what's being said is that there's a loss to the public purse, one way or another.

Juells · 03/09/2019 10:28

...with a concomitant profit into a private pocket.

QualCheckBot · 03/09/2019 10:40

"The most recent General Election in the United Kingdom has returned a Left Wing Government. The new government has introduced certain policies on which you, as legal advisor to parties with a vested interest in corporeal immovable property (real property) and incorporeal property (in the form of stocks and shares), have been asked to provide guidance. Please formulate your guidance on the following issues:

Q(1)(a) The legality of such a policy, discussing, without prejudice to the generality, Protocol and Article One of the ECHR and Article 6, and Articles 16,17, 41, 45 and 54 in the Charter of Fundamental Rights.

(b) Critically analyse the case law concerning the overarching principle of proportionality when applied to the concept of "public interest" with regards to this policy.

(2) The new government has announced some changes to the structure of the legal profession, in order to open it up to persons without the traditional LLB degree. The new requirement will involve a quick exam, lasting no more than one hour, to test the candidate's judgement on issues including: - research skills using informal sources, particularly the use of Google and Wikipeadia; familiarity with skills in Word Processing; the ability to argue only one point and to produce a large word count in a short space of time with no reference to formal legal sources in order to fulfil the aims of the newly elected Government.

(a) Attempt to justify this, with reference to competition law (specifically either distinguishing or using Wouters).

(b) Comment on the likely socio-economic fallout of such a policy, with reference to issues such as economic confidence, business certainty, international recognition of qualifications, the separation of powers and the rule of law.

(b) Comment on whether such a revolutionary policy would transgress the political and legal Constitution comprising the social contract between State and citizen in the UK, with reference to comparative case law including inter alia that of the Bundesverfassungsgericht.

Full citations and critical analysis of legislation and case law should be used to support your answers."

Work in progress. Too difficult for undergraduates?

QualCheckBot · 03/09/2019 10:48

Gettinglikemymother There are IMO far more constructive measure they could take as regards housing. For a start, compulsory registration of ALL landlords, and sufficient powers/resources for councils to check and act on the many poor or rogue ones. Compulsory reg. would also help to ensure payment of tax on rental income - I am convinced that many currently get away without declaring it, or with under-declaring.

This is currently done in Scotland, or is about to be.

Interestingly, in The Netherlands, it was found to produce higher tax revenues from landlords (taking into account both tax receipts and administration costs) to apply a notional rental value to all rental properties declared on the tax return. So therefore if your property value was XXX then your rental value would be XXX x X % giving Y and you would pay X% of Y in your tax return.

The British rental sector is actually more highly regulated than most other European countries. The Scottish rental sector is the most heavily regulated in the world, requiring double registration of landlords in some cases and a great deal of licensing and inspection, although the proposal to requires leases to be checked by local authority licensing departments had to be quietly dropped as it breached a couple of human rights.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 03/09/2019 11:48

How about deterring BTL landlords by raising taxes a bit more, as the Tories did? How about improving the private rental market by extending tenancies and having rent controls like Berlin, for example?

Nah - for the unthinking it wouldn't have the same Wolfie Smith, class warrior appeal would it? Wink

And wasn't it Stalin who suggested that if you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth? As in the constant insistence that "government would fund the discount" when the proposal makes no mention of this at all, and nobody with sense would expect such a rancour-filled bunch to give anything to those "evil bas**rd landlords"

Still, anything to make it sound more palatable I guess … after all it wouldn't do to lose too many votes and put the Marxist utopia at risk

Puzzledandpissedoff · 03/09/2019 11:52

Oh, and I had to smile at the suggestion that a case involving the Greek king proves anything. Anyone with any knowledge of history would appreciate that the Greeks' unhinged attitude to their monarchy suggests the example is hardly representative …

Kazzyhoward · 03/09/2019 12:01

How about deterring BTL landlords by raising taxes a bit more, as the Tories did?

Exactly - it was during the 13 years of Labour that BTL grew so much - Labour did absolutely nothing to stop the growth nor protect tenants - they just liked the smoke and mirrors of it making the economy look good. It took the so-called tax-reducing Tory party to bring in higher taxes on BTL-ers to try to cool the market. Just like always, the Tories having to pick up the pieces left behind by Labour. Nothing ever changes.

QualCheckBot · 03/09/2019 12:26

PuzzledandPissedOff Oh, and I had to smile at the suggestion that a case involving the Greek king proves anything. Anyone with any knowledge of history would appreciate that the Greeks' unhinged attitude to their monarchy suggests the example is hardly representative

The poster in question misunderstood the case. However it is one of the leading cases on state misappropriation of property. It requires years of study and development of legal skills to understand it properly, not a quick skim read on google.

I could seriously see a government led by John McDonnell (the power behind Corbyn) trying to ban lawyers, or allowing non-lawyers to argue legal points in court. Its the sort of thing that communists do.

Treacletoots · 03/09/2019 13:10

So how exactly will a mass sell off of rental properties prior to this legislation be helpful to the housing crisis*

How will people who actively choose to live somewhere they know they can't afford to buy, find somewhere to live if landlords decided enough is enough and exit the sector? They won't suddenly be able to buy!

Or will they be forced to move, to somewhere they can afford?

*which only exists in the South/capital

Dapplegrey · 03/09/2019 13:27

Apologies if this has already been mentioned but in the 1970s and early 1980s tenants were given absolute security for leases of s certain length and over (or maybe all leases - I can’t remember).
There are still some sitting tenants and I’m not sure whether they can pass on the tenancy to descendants. They certainly can’t sell the properties.
Anyway as soon as this legislation was brought in rental property dried up overnight.

Mummyoflittledragon · 03/09/2019 15:00

I can’t believe anyone would think the government would take the hit. This newest in a litany of suggestions is barmy.

Mummyoflittledragon · 03/09/2019 15:01

Oops by the labour government I mean.

leckford · 03/09/2019 15:25

The problem with slum landlords, and they still exist as we see from newspapers is that they seem to be renting to legal and illegal immigrants. Stories of say 10 sleeping in a room. These people cannot afford to rent houses/flat so settle for this because it is the cheapest option. Often the houses have been bought by their fellow countrymen who are knowingly exploiting them. Some of the people in certain areas are the councillors doing the exploiting.

In the past labour stopped people evicting tenants for any reason, 1970s I think, there was no where to rent, the houses were kept empty. Also the same government put up tax rates to ludicrous levels and guess what the money flowed into the newly created tax havens people now moan about. Labour government = Badly thought out disasters

Bearbehind · 03/09/2019 15:50

I can’t believe anyone would think the government would take the hit

Neither can I - for several reasons

Firstly - and most basically, it doesn’t say they will

But secondly, how on earth would anyone support a scheme where the wealthiest private renters got huge windfalls whilst those who need it the most got nothing, and all at the tax payers expense

OP posts:
Bearbehind · 03/09/2019 15:51

Unless of course you are wealthy private renter! 😂

OP posts:
Puzzledandpissedoff · 03/09/2019 17:46

However it is one of the leading cases on state misappropriation of property

I believe you, QualCheckBot, but I'm still very surprised. As said, given the Greeks' attitude to their monarchy and the complications around what a monarch is and isn't entitled to, it's hard to see the relevance to more "ordinary" folks' cases IYSWIM?

But then, as I'm the first to admit, I'm no lawyer ...

QualCheckBot · 03/09/2019 20:49

In case anyone is interested in the legalities of this, it is rather hard to explain it to non-lawyers, but I'll try. It does sound fairly technical even if you try to dumb it down, because you do have to be conversant in that type of legal language to fully understand it.

The government would be compelled to give a right of appeal against any RTB before it was enacted. The likely outcome would be multiple legal actions against the government.

The best way to get round this for any Labour Government would be to actually leave the ECHR, since such a policy is not ECHR - compliant. Furthermore, they would have to set up a different system of tribunals staffed by lets say "non-traditional" and "non-independent" judges, with no right of appeal to the courts.

What is more likely in practice, because leaving the ECHR would be a major vote loser, is that any Labour Government would realise they would lose such a case and be internationally embarrassed, so instead would raise taxes on renting. The policy would be quietly dropped.

When you consider that any case going to the ECHR on this topic would cite 400-500 other cases to be discussed, distinguished and applied, that gives you some idea of the complexity of debate. There is case law on the differential application of the concept of proportionality to the loss of control and to the deprivation of property itself and degrees inbetween. And the ECHR does not follow the strict system of precedence that there is here. Nevertheless the ECHR has strengthened the procedural aspects of the criteria of proportionality over time. There are actually another couple of cases involving Greece where Greek law was held to be illegal by the ECHR following appropriation for road building. The Court found that Greek law was “manifestly without reasonable foundation”. This made it unnecessary even to establish that the applicants had actually suffered the effects of this system, since, “in the case of a large number of owners, it necessarily upsets the fair balance between the protection of the right to property and the requirements of the general interest". I'm not giving the citation as I'm not doing work free of charge.

However, we are talking about millions of people being being forcibly deprived by the state of their property rights. Even if the tenants were only offered an option to buy, they would lose control of their properties and that in itself is sufficient for loss of property rights to be actionable under Protocol 1 Article 1.

Compensation is not adequate to redress this, because such a massive measure must be shown to be in the public interest and creating a communist utopia is not in the public interest - otherwise there would be no point in having the ECHR. Its there to protect against such things. The Greek case is distinguishable because it involved areas of forestry ancillary to the applicant's main landholding in a country whose monarchy had been disposed after a long period of political discord. It is possibly wrong on a more modern application of the law. The line of case law stemming from Sporrong and Lonroth is more likely to be followed, and the outcome almost certainly, as it nearly always is, that the aim could be achieved, on fair balance, by less onerous means - taxation. And you can also simply point out that when millions are adversely affected by a measure causing the loss of their property ownership rights, that measure is no longer in the public interest, because so many of the public are adversely affected.

In other words, its all a waste of time. Its a headline grabber by Labour and they know it, they want to attract attention by being so blatantly communist, they will appeal to those who have no hope of ever bettering their situation in life other than through taking something belonging to someone else. A sad reality.

BloodyDisgrace · 09/09/2019 11:05

I will have to read all of it later, but I still don't understand this: under this proposal do they actually want to force a landlord to sell, even if landlord doesn't want to sell? Suppose I won't sell my property. I don't want the money which will be nothing in the savings account. I need the monthly income I get from the rent. Would the new law basically shove me the crappy price for my house and hand it over to the tenant?!

I would not be able to vote for Labour anymore if they persist with it.

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