To ask whether 4 a levels would be too much work?

[donthaveorganiccarrots]

Seen that there is a very similar thread on here at the moment but don’t want to hijack it. Have a dd going into year 12 who would like to study medicine and a few days ago picked her a levels as biology chemistry history and maths to do until AS but is now wondering whether she’d be better off doing all four to A2 as she doesn’t want to drop history and people have told her she needs maths for the best chance of getting offers from med schools. So 3 a levels and an AS in maths or all four full a levels?

I'd ditch the history.

I did 4 (plus general studies at AS level only). It was fine for me; I didn't drop any of the 4 subjects because I enjoyed them all.

I did 5 a levels (before they went modular) with the intention of reading medicine.
Cambridge made me an offer of 5A if I had only done 3 they would have offered 3A.
The other places all offered on 3 but made it conditional on getting grades in maths, chemistry and biology.
Check out the prospectus now for what they want before making a final decision.

I agree with @riotlady - maths isn't compulsory for medicine and it would be better for her to concentrate on the subjects that are compulsory and acing them. She'd be better of using the extra time for volunteering to support her application for medical school.

Also A level Maths is a huge step up from GCSE maths in my experience (albeit nearly 20 years ago)

Meh, I did 4 A levels with 2 extra AS's and it was fine. Still had free periods playing cards, still had nights out, wasn't super stressed.

Uni degree was a lot more work and that was just the equivalent of a full-time job really. It depends on how easy she has found her schoolwork so far.

You just don’t need to do 4! My DD has just done them this year, the first year of the revamped curriculum, and sorry guys but they really are harder now. Why make life more difficult and stressful? My DD started with 4 but knowing she would decide to drop one. The school don’t do AS at all anymore as most subjects you can’t and they don’t count anyway.
Could I suggest an EPQ? This is an independent extended essay (university style) about any subject that interests. Have a look, the student can really demonstrate their passion for the subject!

I notice that all the super bright posters have come out of the woodwork saying how easy it was to do gazillions of A levels. Anyone who took A levels between 1989 and 2015 will have found them easier than they are now because of the A level reforms.

Not everyone is as bright as that, and 4 A levels nowadays are not easy. DD started off with 4 and dropped one after AS levels. She was almost on her knees with stress and exhaustion by the end of year 12. She got very few free periods doing 4 subjects.

I will reiterate that no medical school asks for 4 A levels, nor does Oxbridge.

Dd (who has just done 4) would suggest if you can have the option of an AS do that plus 3 or if you start 4 and find it is too much work, find you hate one or that it is compromising socialising or other interests/activities drop to 3. She kept doing 4 partly because she would have felt studying for a year then dropping without anything to show for it was wasting time and she enjoyed all 4. 4 works best where the subjects interrelate well and cross over.

I notice that all the super bright posters have come out of the woodwork saying how easy it was to do gazillions of A levels. Anyone who took A levels between 1989 and 2015 will have found them easier than they are now because of the A level reforms

Clearly you’ve read the posts that said how it may not be relevant and that things may well be different now

Is she doing maths in the hopes she'll get more offers? If so, she doesn't need to, however it depends on if she has particular universities in mind.

Some will favour maths over history as an A level.

My friends is going into year 12... she's also wanting to do medicine, but has chosen 5 A levels. 3 sciences, maths and further maths. My friend is worried already about the stress her DD will be under... but she got all 9s in her 10 GCSES and thinks she can do it...even though friend told her A levels are much more difficult.

They won't be told or even advised at times.

Kids can put themselves under a lot of pressure, which in turn is transferred to the parents.

Why doesn't your DD look at the universities she is thinking of and check if they prefer specific subjects, beyond biology and another science.

sandyY2K dd also got all 9s at GCSEs which is why I fear her pushing herself to do 4 and then crumbling
If she were to ditch the history she wouldn’t be too happy but would have to do so now as she would want to rearrange so she did a full a level in maths and a different subject that the school runs at AS level.
The unis dd is interested in don’t state a specific preference but she’s worried that there’s an unwritten favour towards maths - I think she should keep the history which she loves and will excel at and make sure her UCAT/BMAT are very good with lots of volunteering but I can’t count on her to listen to me as she can be extremely stubborn

I did A levels 6 years ago, so not that long ago but it might be harder now, I sat I think 10 exams at the end of A levels. I did 4 a levels plus the extra critical thinking (which i didnt work for so not really relevent) and it really wasn't that much work, 3 wouldn't have stretched me enough.

Especially as there's only one essay heavy subject there. Maths will help with chemistry as well, so they work well together and I personally think chemistry is a millions times easier if you are good at maths and keep up your maths skills.

I did dentistry not medicine, but said this on the other thread. Dentistry was about 50x the work of A levels, doing 4 helped me learn to prioritise work and work effectively, and work throughout the year as well. I struggled less with the transition than my friends who did 3 did, because I knew how to get the best out of myself with less time already and only had to build on these skills.

Someone capable of medicine I wouldn't think would find 4 A levels too much work, and I think it helps with the transition. Plus it gives a fall back should she cock up history or maths.

maths would be nice but not essential.

i'd strongly advise anyone who thinks [s]he might in any way struggle to do:

(a) chemistry;
(b) whichever of biology/physics/maths they think they'd have the highest chance of a top grade in; and
(c) whichever third subject they think they'd have the highest chance of a top grade in.

I passed 11 GCSEs then I started 4 alevels with one AS. We were not allowed to take less than this at my college and in the end I couldn't manage with the work load (chemistry, biology, physics, IT and general/religious studies AS.)

I asked the head of department after the 1st term if I could drop one. I was told no so I dropped out completely.

Where as my Friend breezed through 4 alevels. Everyone manages differently.

I went on to do a vocational course at a different college which was alevel equivalent and got into uni that way.

Alevels are not easy for everyone. Is your DDS college more flexible than mine. Is there the option to start them and then drop one of needed?

I passed 11 GCSEs 'so I thought alevels would be fine' I then started 4 alevels and an as.

• sorry I don't know where my half my sentence disappeared too

I did 5 A levels, got BBBBB at AS and then finished with AABCD at A2.

From my experience, yes it's too much. I had to compensate by paying far less attention to the last two and doing a lot of extra revision for the first three. My B was only 4 marks off an A, which I expect I would have gotten had I not done the C and D subjects which I didn't really need (annoyingly one of them was mandatory general studies so I couldn't have dropped it regardless)

If she's set on medicine, she's probably better off with just three strong science subjects.

I know it's very early but does she know about intercolating? It should be possible for her to do a history masters for one year of her medicine degree.

Got onto an even more competitive and harder 'medical' degree with 3 A levels and AS Maths. What Medical schools care about is not how many A levels (basically all will be predicted A/A*) but the extra curricular activities and work experience. To give her the best chance of interviews focus on the work experience and 3 A levels to guarantee the 3 A's. I did not chose which subject out of Maths and Geography to drop till after results day if that gives you a hint. Those who got offers are those who could show they were well rounded and had relevant work experience. The University couldn't care less if you did 3 or 10 A levels (just you got the grades to tick the academic ability box - they want you to demonstrate you have compassion, and the skills and real world knowledge through the work experience for medicine more. You could be the most intelligent person ever but without compassion you would not be able to make a good doctor. The Uni only check your have the required predicted grades and required 2 science A levels. Interviews are given out on BMAT/ UKCat scores and their own additional questionnaires to asses the vital non academic qualities. Your score at interview then determines your offer - not number of A level

DD took chemistry, biology, maths and Further Maths. Dropped the latter at A2. It was worth taking it though as she was able to use her top marks at AS in FM towards her Maths A2 but as an AS it was otherwise totally pointless. Much better to spend time doing extra curriculum activities/volunteeing.

Thank you everyone the repeated idea of maths not being necessary has calmed her down. She’s sticking with maths as an AS

It depends on your daughter and what she can cope with. Entrance requirement are almost always (I have never seen it otherwise) based on 4 A levels.

I did multiple subjects, but they were split over A2 and A level, so there were exams, coursework etc in each year not all at the end (I think the majority are that way now).

I took English literature and language, chemistry, biology, maths and German in the first year and then stopped German after A2 and took up general studies in the second year (as that counts as an A level).

I ended up with AABBB and B AS German.

It was hard work, but it didn't feel too bad as I am very academic. I am guessing your daughter probably is to pick those subjects and want to study medicine. The hardest part is the timetable - with the amount of subjects I had my lunchbreak and one free period a week when all my friends had lots of free time so I felt like I was missing out socially. I did enjoy the subjects though.

Your information is out of date Cornish

I said this on the other thread but repeating it won’t hurt. In my experience the third subject makes zero difference if they have A/A* predictions in Biology, Chemisty plus one other. None of our successful medical applicants have had A Level Maths in the last few years. An AS in Maths is more than sufficient.
She’d be much better off spending the time that she would have spent studying for a fourth A Level doing plenty of work experience in as many medical and care settings as she can. She also needs to prepare for the UCAT/BMAT as those scores are critical in determining who gets interviewed and who gets rejected outright. Every year we have students who insist, against all of our advice, on submitting applications for medicine to universities that they don’t meet the UCAT threshold for “just in case”. It’s a waste of a choice and they are always rejected. Sometimes you just can’t tell them though.

If she is still nervous I would really suggest trying to talk to some of the teaching staff at the college/school she is planning to go to, they will have plenty of experience with helping students to get in to university and will have some insight in to what is/isn't required to get on to the long term route desired.
On another note I know a lot of colleges don't like putting students on to 4 a-levels unless they genuinely think they can manage as the move to linear a levels means that dropped subjects can affect overall statistics and funding for them as well as having a potentially negative affect on the students performance.

Only Queen's University Belfast state the requirement of four; only Cambridge indicates a preference for all science subjects (including maths).

Not one of our students in the last two years have taken four A Levels. Not all took maths. Anecdotally, the student who received the most offers (three) this year did not take maths.

Four A Levels is a massive ask. This year's A Level cohort was the first to take maths; it was one of the last to be reformed. It is an exceptionally tough A Level and will be even more so if it is one of four. Her time would be better placed focusing on achieving top grades, amassing a range of work experience and preparing well for her UKCAT/BMAT.