Michaela School and behaviour - AIBU

[herculepoirot2]

AIBU to think that you might read this behaviour policy and think it is authoritarian and unnecessary, but to also think that, with results four times better than the national average, these people might have a point about the benefits to young people of being expected to work hard and behave well?

mcsbrent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Behaviour-Policy-11.02.19.pdf

I didn't know that quotation as a fact - but I Googled it and found it out.

I used my knowledge and understanding to analyse it and the character of the person saying it.

I feel for the students who have to learn such quotations by rote in their class for their GCSEs.

I wonder if they teach Dickens piggy?

Piggy being able to quote literature to make a point. Gove would be proud

I am sure they do come but I wonder if they critically analyse.

I would add that there is a difference between knowledge and facts. hercule said Milton used his knowledge, not facts, to construct Paradise Lost, to be fair.

But a lot of the love for the knowledge curriculum does sound Gradgrindian.

I think Gove once said something about Gradgrind : I think he said he had appoint or something...

Facts re application is interesting in the arts.

I learnt piano by learning to read music and studying music theory. Ds has perfect pitch and synasthesia. He initially learnt by ear, by experimenting with chords and sequencing. He then started to learn to read music and learn about chords and theory but he’s knowledge of chord construction and progressions was built up by experimenting and working things out. He is now composing his own music. Dh when he was a child learnt in a similar wY and he is a far better musician than I’ll ever be.

You can teach a lot of facts. But at some point, you have to ask what you think will happen, based on the facts you already know.

I think this is a really important skill - based on the facts you know, say about science, what do you think will happen when we do this and why?

You can no doubt teach what will happen...or you can work with the students to get them to figure it out themselves.

I wonder how much 'discovery' happens in a school with an emphasis on rote learning?

Discovery learning is a pile of shite.

I wonder how much 'discovery' happens in a school with an emphasis on rote learning?

Hopefully not much. Discovery learning doesn't help students learn better. Especially those who don't have enough background knowledge.

Asking students to predict "what happens if...." should be part of most learning episodes (not lessons). Outright discovery learning is a waste of time.

Discovery learning is a pile of shite

So you don't think students should be asked to apply the facts they know to learn a new fact? You think the teacher should simply give them all the facts?

You can teach a lot of facts. But at some point, you have to ask what you think will happen, based on the facts you already know

Has anybody ever said you shouldn’t? There seems to be a deliberate misunderstanding of what a knowledge curriculum is reducing it to rote learning of facts out of context and no analysis or thinking.

It very reminiscent of the arguments about phonics and times tables.

Remember the boiled carrot question?

Students complained because it wasn't about potatoes. They had learnt the facts about potatoes and osmosis. When it came to a carrot, they were flummoxed.

debunker.club/2015/06/05/discovery-learning-is-not-effective/

It's not about the potato v carrots. That's nothing to do with discovery learning.

That's nothing to do with discovery learning

Maybe discovery was the wrong word. More to do with applying knowledge and facts you've learnt to new situations, instead of learning the facts for those new situations.

You could be told that reactivity increases as you go down Group 1 in the Periodic Table. You could be told the reasons why. You could be given the expected answer for the exam, write it down, remember it and recall it.

Or you could work it through with some scaffolding along the way..

Which is better?

So you don't think students should be asked to apply the facts they know to learn a new fact?

In maths there’s a popular lesson where you get kids to ‘discover’ pi, like the ancients did, by measuring the circumference and diameter of a bunch of circles, dividing one by the other, and spotting that they all have the same answer.

I did it for years. The kids never fucking discovered pi. They spent a lesson with bits of string and pringles tubes measuring away, filling out tables, being busy. They’d dutifully divide one by the other, record their results. Then I’d ask what they’d spotted and they’d look at their answers which ranged from 2.something to 3.something if you were lucky and they’d not fucked up and they would shrug. The best you could hope for was ‘it’s about 3’.

Then you’d have to explain pi to them, tell them what it was meant to come out as, explain the significance. And then the next lesson they remembered fannying around with margarine tubs but not the formula and basically you’d wasted a whole lesson when they could have been actually doing some maths.

That’s discovery learning.

Then you’d have to explain pi to them, tell them what it was meant to come out as, explain the significance

Why not tell them that it's the circumference divided by the diameter and then get them to work it out practically.

How many of your students can explain what Pi actually is? Rather than recalling a formula and maybe to a few places?

Why not tell them that it's the circumference divided by the diameter and then get them to work it out practically.

Because that's a waste of everyone's time! Just tell them that's what it is and get them using it.

Do you tell them the value of a radian or do you get them to use the formulas they know and their prior maths knowledge - just by telling them that it's the angle that makes the arc the same as the radius?

Because that's a waste of everyone's time! Just tell them that's what it is and get them using it

I wonder how many more people remember it because they did something practical around it....

How many of your students can explain what Pi actually is?

Er, you don’t think I teach them what pi actually is?

Why not tell them that it's the circumference divided by the diameter and then get them to work it out practically.

Nobles post explained perfectly why it doesn't work!

I wonder how many more people remember it because they did something practical around it...

Fuck all of them. From extensive experience. They spent the lesson thinking about measuring margarine tubs, not about pi.

Er, you don’t think I teach them what pi actually is

You can teach them it How many can explain back to you exactly what it is?

I wonder how many more people remember it because they did something practical around it....

In my experience none! They do however remember after plenty of practise and regular retrieval. (and occasionally the cheesy pi song!)

Why not tell them that it's the circumference divided by the diameter and then get them to work it out practically.

Isn’t that noble’s point? When you get 30 kids to do it practically it doesn’t come to anything like pi? You’ve still got a lesson where you’ve told the kids to divide the circumference by the diameter and they spend the rest of the time not getting 3.14. Instead they could actually be spending g that time working out the circumference or diameter of circles and solving increasing difficult problems using pi.

I’m not sure the problem with the carrot question was the difference between carrots and potatoes either.