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AIBU?

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Original poster

Is this lease bonkers?!

52 replies

DrierThanANunsNasty · 20/08/2019 16:40

Hoping to get some advice from anyone who has purchased a leasehold property as I think this lease looks absolutely ridiculous.

Just some of the clauses include:

No alterations to inside the property without prior written consent
No pets without prior written consent
All floors other than kitchen and bathroom to be carpeted (I don’t want sodding carpet)
No musical instruments, singing or radio noise from the property
No changing of any of the structure of the property (there are some walls we wanted to move, such as knocking a pantry out to make the kitchen bigger as it’s tiny but it’s not a supporting wall)

There are also plenty of other insane ones like not hanging your washing out of the windows and having to paint, varnish or paper the walls every five years...

Is this normal?! There’s quite a lot of work to be done on the property which is why we wanted to buy it - as a doer upper. The leaseholder is also the council if that makes any difference?

We were so close to signing contracts and moving in and this has now stopped us in our tracks.

OP posts:
Original poster
DrierThanANunsNasty · 20/08/2019 17:14

@steff13 that’s a leasehold, yep! Feel a bit like we’re not really escaping the ‘renting’ mindset really Sad

OP posts:
Trafalger · 20/08/2019 17:18

Drier it can feel still like renting but no one can tell you to move out with 2 months notice and you can at least decorate and put pictures and stuff up! You will find most freeholders do not care about the small stuff. They are not going to come every 5 years and check you have repainted etc........ your dogs will probably be a formality and you could risk it without permission but they may say down the line if someone grasses you up.

OneRingToRuleThemAll · 20/08/2019 17:19

I live in a leasehold flat in the SE and those terms are standard. I reconfigured the whole floor plan to add a new bedroom and paid the freeholder £120 for their consent. The (first floor) floors are carpeted. Once in ten years I've had an additional bill - £300 for external decoration. I'd need another £100k to buy a house around here so it's all well and good saying don't buy leasehold, but there is often no choice.

YesQueen · 20/08/2019 17:21

Sounds about right. I live in an apartment I bought, we have a management company who are quite frankly useless and I never see. I ignore most of them as do the rest of us we all have cats
Apparently we are meant to be inspected (inside our flat) once a year but nobody has ever been. I ignored the bit about decorating tastefully and there was something about not bringing the building into disrepute which made me want to start shagging in the garden but GrinBlush
The one that does bug me is I can't dry washing in my private garden Sad

SunniDay · 20/08/2019 17:25

The clauses sound pretty standard to me except the noise one but I doubt you will have a dawn raid accusing you of singing "happy birthday" I think it just covers them if they are receiving noise complaints from others.

As stated by a PP you really don't want someone making alterations which compromise the building so in turn you have to toe the line and ask for permission.

The other things pets/carpet etc are only going to get enforced (in my opinion) if people complain about you - so I would just crack on and live your life in a considerate way.

I agree with PP that the biggest risk you face is the council deciding to do a programme of works and you Will be expected to pay your share (Council tenants will be paid for). I believe there is a process for asking the council about upcoming works - in the next five years I think. I'm not sure if they are bound by their response but you should know for sure. A new roof/ cladding planned etc could easily explain why the current leaseholders would be selling quickly for what appears undervalued so don't skimp on this. Find out what might be done in future and what it costs and save for this. Is there a monthly ground rent/management fee also?

SunniDay · 20/08/2019 17:29

Spotted your response re works completed - might still be worth following the process for works planned.

FiddlesticksAkimbo · 20/08/2019 17:30

From my dim-and-distant recollection of leasehold law, I think there is an implied term in all of those clauses where you require freeholder consent that the consent is not to be unreasonably withheld. So if you do want to move internal walls for example, they can only stop you where there's a good reason. Which is probably just as well.

RosaWaiting · 20/08/2019 17:33

It's not remotely like renting!

anyway, I would really think about this if I were you. As I say, no gas might be a safety issue, they might not want to have any flats with gas.

The carpet thing is fair enough even if you are on ground floor - it's amazing how noise travels.

they actually enforce no pets in my building - I suppose the main thing is no dogs because they have only ever requested to look inside people's flats after a fire. But I love that there's no pets here and feel that the management company would be on it right away if someone tried it on.

in terms of daily noise, we also have a clause that says if people can hear your music outside the flat, it's too loud.

Management really helped me when some noisy git started having regular 5am parties.

so don't assume everyone else in the block doesn't like the rules - they might love them!

RosaWaiting · 20/08/2019 17:34

btw why do you want to put gas in? If you aren't happy with electric then you're looking at the wrong flat, surely?

Jaxhog · 20/08/2019 17:35

This is all normal and intended to ensure peaceful and enjoyable living for everyone. You may also become grateful that your neighbours are also subject to these conditions. It's very unlikely they can (or would) withhold 'reasonable' consent. What you consider 'reasonable' may differ from theirs, however.

pnppr · 20/08/2019 17:36

This seems fine to me, it's standard and it's all to protect the well being of the general block.

I live in a ground floor maisonette but I have a dog. We never got written permission as we got the dog as a rescue unexpectedly. We are just hoping we don't get a court summons (this would take ages to go through anyway with appeals etc) and are trying to sell to move anyway (need a bloody garden)

It's a non-issue, as long as you get dog permission asap you are fine.

Countrylifeornot · 20/08/2019 17:37

Just beware of the no pets clause OP. It's absolutely no good thinking a wing and a prayer will see you through, will you rehome the dogs if necessary?

Original poster
DrierThanANunsNasty · 20/08/2019 17:38

We want to put gas central heating in because it’s sooo much cheaper than the electric storage heaters in there now.

This is a two storey maisonette (separate entrances) so two properties. Upstairs has gas, hence the mains coming in, but the ground floor hasn’t been touched/decorated since about 1973 haha!

OP posts:
Original poster
DrierThanANunsNasty · 20/08/2019 17:39

@Countrylifeornot we just wouldn’t move forward with the property if they said no dogs. We have had them for 7 years, they’re family to us.

I take them into work every day anyway so would hope they wouldn’t cause a nuisance to anyone when we weren’t there!

OP posts:
RosaWaiting · 20/08/2019 17:40

oh if upstairs has gas, you should be all right.

I was worried electric heating would cost a fortune; I should have been more worried about the cost of running fans in a sweatbox.

Scotlass123 · 20/08/2019 17:41

Why bother buying a leasehold if you can’t really do anything you want. Madness.

Countrylifeornot · 20/08/2019 17:47

Just be aware OP that the council won't view your request for pets with anywhere near the urgency you view it, it may take them months to get back to you unfortunately.

Malvinaa81 · 20/08/2019 17:49

Two dogs and a flat don't always go well together, and most leases will have conditions about pets.

Not sure what you did expect from a leasehold property.

For any future major works, being a Council leaseholder can face huge costs- especially things like roof, or heavens forbid, a lift.

And being on the ground floor won't excuse you these costs.

I once saw a cost of about £20,000 per flat in a block of six, for a new roof, when the Council were the freeholder.

DaveGrohlsBeard · 20/08/2019 17:54

Make sure your solicitor fully explains any liability you may have for service charges as well OP. These can often be very expensive in council owned properties.

Lellikelly26 · 20/08/2019 18:26

Having worked in conveyancing in the past I would not buy a leasehold unless it was a maisonette with a 999 year lease.

LemonPrism · 20/08/2019 20:22

@YouLookGood pretty much every property in London is a leasehold.

Sallyseagull · 20/08/2019 20:23

I was a property manager for years.

Those are extremely common lease terms and very reasonable.

Sallyseagull · 20/08/2019 20:24

I also get some people cant afford freehold but I would not touch leasehold with a barge pole.

DelphiniumBlue · 20/08/2019 20:41

I have seen Councils send out huge bills to leaseholders; get your solicitor to check what charges have been made in the last 5 years or so, and whether there is a sinking fund - i.e. money put aside for maintenance. You need to ask specifically what works are scheduled for , say the next 3 years, and whether there is enough money in the sinking fund to pay for that. Don't accept "don't know" as an answer - you need written replies from the Council. Your solicitor should be across all this, but if they are fairly junior, they might not know. You want to see maintenance accounts and receipts for the last 3 years at least. If no work has been done for a while, then it's due, and you want to know that anything done recently has been paid for.
This is standard. The leases are in standard form, so this isn't unusual. If some things are non-negotiable, get the council's written permission before you exchange contracts - eg pets, alterations, flooring.

DelphiniumBlue · 20/08/2019 20:47

Forgot to say, I did once have a case where the leaseholders moved a non-structural wall without consent, and the freeholders found out and wanted to forfeit the lease.It was hugely stressful and expensive for the leaseholders, even though they were arguably in the right. Don't make assumptions that they won't find out/won't care.