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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think societal conditioning has a big influence on women more often choosing to study Arts/Law/etc. rather than Engineering/Mathematics/etc.

91 replies

Hmmtheplant · 15/08/2019 13:48

To think societal conditioning has a big influence on women more often choosing to study Arts/Law/etc. rather than Engineering/Mathematics/etc. I ask because I often end up in discussions with male friends/family members about the extent of the role of nature versus nurture in all of this.

OP posts:

chemenger · 15/08/2019 14:45

I am a strong believer in single sex schools. I definitely believe that girls schools produce more engineering students than mixed. They have absolutely no trouble dealing with male students on the whole, usually quite the reverse . Back when I was a student in the eighties I was the only female engineering student in my year who had not been to a single sex school. We all had fathers who were engineers. Having said that I was part of an experiment at my school where the top stream was split into a top stream girls class and a top boys class for the first two years of secondary. So we started out in maths and science without any feeling of them not being girls subjects. Right up to sixth year science and maths classes were pretty much 50:50 girls to boys, I think as a result. Lots of boys taking English as well. I was still the only girl to take technology subjects though.

MarshaBradyo · 15/08/2019 14:46

Dd has two older brothers so loads of wheeled toys around. She follows their lead a lot and loves pushing a car. She also has a mini kitchen but so did the boys so hopefully not too bad.

I loved maths and physics but also literature at school (studied economics and arts at university) and would be delighted if dd did too.

LaurieMarlow · 15/08/2019 14:47

One doesn’t need to be in a classroom with men to learn how to interact with them.

I’d argue it’s immensely helpful at an early and formative stage.

JacquesHammer · 15/08/2019 14:48

I’d argue it’s immensely helpful at an early and formative stage

Did you go to single sex school?

LatteLove · 15/08/2019 14:49

I don’t believe you need exposure to be able to deal with a vast majority of people. Men aren’t a different species. There isn’t some sort of course one needs to be able to interact!

Plus even going to a mixed school doesn’t mean much in terms of interacting. Growing up other than my dad I never had any boys or men around me really. All my friends were female, all only had sisters, as did I, my gran was single...I did go to a mixed school but didn’t like or get on with boys and didn’t really know how to talk to them until I was about 16 and just about ready to leave!

LaurieMarlow · 15/08/2019 14:52

Did you go to single sex school?

Yes I did.

And I got stellar exam results.

Passthecherrycoke · 15/08/2019 14:53

Very interesting re veterinary medicine.

LaurieMarlow · 15/08/2019 14:53

I suspect there were more valuable skills I could have been picking up.

JacquesHammer · 15/08/2019 14:54

I suspect there were more valuable skills I could have been picking up

I’m sorry you felt that way

I found no difficulty - and certainly I don’t know of any of my cohort that did - dealing with boys as we left school. In fact a good majority of us went into male-heavy careers.

Kitsandkids · 15/08/2019 14:55

It starts in babyhood or even before with people insisting that because they’ve had a girl/boy they now need a pink/blue pram etc. I’m on a local FB selling page and have got a few second hand toys for my daughter that people have got rid of once their son has grown out of them, but before their baby daughter is of an age to play with them. Vetch toot toot drivers stuff for example. Why can’t girls play with that?

My daughter’s 2 and goes to baby dance and baby football classes. Dance because I always enjoyed it as a child so thought she might and football because I want her to be able to hold her own against boys who say ‘girls can’t play’ when they’re older. The dance class is made up entirely of little girls and the football class entirely of little boys (other than her). Why? Why in this day and age are people still sticking to the stereotypes of ‘boys do X and girls do Y?’

Fraggling · 15/08/2019 15:00

I went to a single sex school

I didn't even realise, it had never crossed my mind that the subjects I preferred were not so common for girls until I went to a mixed 6th form and got a bit of a shock.

I had a brother and male friends etc, this idea that girls who don't go to mixed schools are incapable of interacting with men is odd.

What I did notice was that my tolerance for sexist / bullshit from men or poor behaviour was much lower and I was much happier to challenge them on it, than my friends who were at mixed sex schools.

I do think that actually what people mean is that girls in mixed schools are more likely to have a raised tolerance for shit (boys will be boys) and have learnt tactics to address their words or behaviour without being too straightforward. Ie learnt to placate them and /or ignore them.

Not all obviously and you get different personalities and home, hobbies etc have influence.

That was my personal experience though.

Fraggling · 15/08/2019 15:03

I find it interesting the idea that girls who have not been in daily contact with boys in the classroom will have somehow deficient or not well rounded personalities.

That's fairly derogatory of girls in general I think?

ColaFreezePop · 15/08/2019 15:05

@Fraggling agree.

Was educated single sex 11-16 then mixed sixth form. However there were more males then females in my classes due to doing science subjects.

Interestingly I now work in a male dominated profession. When I've worked in teams where there are more than 2 women some of the younger men look scared. Talking to them I found they went to single sex schools. So I actually think it's some men who went to single sex schools who have the issues.

MarshaBradyo · 15/08/2019 15:06

I went to mixed sex school and it was fine. I used to like beating the boys in maths and physics.

Tbh the biggest hindrance was mixed classes and someone making jibes about good marks - female. Once we were split up it was easier for people to do well without issues.

Pukkatea · 15/08/2019 15:07

It could even be possible that girls who go to single-sex schools end up BETTER at dealing with men, because they've had less conditioning that their place in the world is secondary to them.

MarshaBradyo · 15/08/2019 15:09

Thinking of the schools near me if I could choose I’d go for mixed

Depends on what each school is like obviously

chemenger · 15/08/2019 15:11

Fraggling you are describing my impression of female students who have been to single sex schools exactly. They generally don’t take any crap from the male students.
I think studies have shown that girls benefit academically from single sex education but boys do better in mixed. My daughters went to girls schools.

KateUrrer · 15/08/2019 15:14

Same here Marsha.

Fraggling · 15/08/2019 15:19

I did hard science subject at male dominated science specific uni and went via financial sector to IT.

I've always had lots of male friends as well as female, I like men, esp those of a sightly nerdy variety.

It may just be my personality of course that meant I'd be the one saying look just go away to the overly persistent men in the pub etc.

I'm not in touch with many girls from school so not sure what they ended up doing. A lot of law, medicine I think.

Fraggling · 15/08/2019 15:20

I think it's an easier life if you let this stuff go tbh

I mean the calling men out when they're twats thing.

P0wderPuff005 · 15/08/2019 16:57

I attended mixed sex school

My job title is X Engineer

Yes there is a huge male bias in society & I work in a male dominated industry.
There are 'jobs for male friends' or previous work colleagues, although I've seen this in other industries too
I believe long working hours & shift work are sometimes not compatible for family life for
There is absolutely no reason why other females cannot do my job role
Females need to be a bit thick skinned and not put up with any xxxx !
A sense of humour helps

Some male Engineers are great technically, but poor communicators or lazy
Some males Engineers don't like change

Females tend to be motivated & good at multitasking, better communication skills

In the same way, men are not actively pushed towards what are considered female roles

P0wderPuff005 · 15/08/2019 17:01

One of my friends works in another male dominated industry. Also shift work & she doesn't take any xxxx from anyone !
We are both strong characters

fuzzyduck1 · 15/08/2019 17:16

I’m a bloke and done typing at school (before the days of pc’s) and was ridiculed for it years have gone by and it’s the best skill I have ever learnt.

I’m an engineer and the team I woke in has 1 female engineer and I can honestly say she can run rings around most of the team and get more done than all the “experienced” engineers, I’d welcome more women in engineering. We have had a few but they end up leaving to have kids and not coming back. Such a waist.

P0wderPuff005 · 15/08/2019 17:26

WWW & WW2 females did lots of male jobs due to labour shortages
This began to open opportunities for women in the workplace
Other social factors like contraception etc
Independence for women

There is definitely still a male/female bias

There is no reason why anyone can't do what they want to

P0wderPuff005 · 15/08/2019 17:55

Wasn't Kylie a car mechanic on the TV ?

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