To wonder how the general public would actually react if the government took drastic climate change measures?

[tequilasunrises]

I’m talking about measures that would severely restrict people’s ability to live how they choose. For example, implanting a one/two child policy, heavy restrictions on animal products and car and air travel mileage.

From reading threads on here and talking to people in real life it is clear that many people agree something needs to be done to stop climate change but aren’t willing to make the bigger sacrifices.

So, who thinks there would be uproar and who thinks the public would be behind extreme measures?

I’d be very sad to have my travel opportunities limited but would be behind it for the greater good.

I'm veggie, recycle, only child dd walks most places or uses public transport, I haven't been on any holiday in over 10 years anyway as can't afford it, I'm currently housebound so using no transport, try to keep energy use to a min (admittedly for budgetary reasons), buy cheap clothes BUT look after them (mainly primark, I honestly don't believe people who say it's "disposable" clothing, I have jeans and t-shirts from there I've had almost 10 years still in perfectly good condition, might not be height of fashion but simple styles that don't date quickly), I also don't throw stuff out unless I'm certain it can't be repaired/up cycled

BUT I must admit it pisses me off that it's always people as individuals/families that are expected to make the changes and there's very little pressure on commercial companies or even how govt departments operate!

It also feels pretty hopeless given that eg the USA, China & Russia do pretty much much sod all to address large scale environmental poor practice!

Just from my experience as an employee and customer the resistance of major companies to doing what THEY can to reduce their impact makes me feel like not bothering!

So many companies still use far too much energy, plastic, paper etc

Even "just" supermarkets - we have all the nonsense with plastic carrier bags...meanwhile the ridiculous amount of plastic packaging of products WAY outweighs the amount of plastic used for carriers.

I've said this on other "green" threads too, the carrier bag charge is a nonsense in terms of reducing usage it plain hasn't! Or not much! Yea people moaned at first but really most people quickly got used to paying the few pence required but carried on using them.

I lived in Europe for several years where they're MUCH more switched on about this stuff!

Carrier bags made not from plastic but plastic like cellulose or plant fibres that are completely biodegradable

Much less plastic used for packaging generally. Reusable crates the norm for drinks and canned goods, jars, paper or cardboard for fruit and veg (which is better for it too! Makes it last longer) although it also wasn't unusual to see locals using reusable jute or cotton mini bags for these which were washable too. They also had certain goods available to buy "loose" in customers own storage containers that we don't here - flour, rice, sugar etc

Councils recycle MUCH more, mine only recycles some plastics, metal and paper!

They "tried" glass recycling but didn't really plan it well. Don't recycle some plastics which are recyclable, don't recycle food waste, only recycle garden waste for a very short time in the summer.

In Europe every little couldn't be recycled! A small amount of plastics, rags were hard to recycle, disposable nappies and sanitary wear, broken household items was pretty much it. I'm trying to think actually but yea I think everything else could be recycled. We had 1 bin for non recyclables which we rarely filled, 1 for paper, cardboard 1 for recyclable plastics, 1 for glass and metals (I think magnets to separate?), 1 for food, garden and plant waste. So pretty much iirc a different bin out each week but the week the non recycling bin went out we put 2 out. It was so normal there it was quite a shock to the system coming back to uk and struggling for room in the black bin as so little was recycled (back then it was only paper, cardboard and metal here)

Also they were much better at encouraging cycling , car sharing etc with well planned and maintained roads and cycle ways.

We're rural so public transport isn't great and we do sometimes get extremes of weather (well to be honest most winters - Scotland) plus of course lots of farms here so people do have big 4wd here.

If govts and campaigners want people to use less, "reduce, reuse, recycle" they HAVE to provide the correct facilities and manage them properly to do so and I really think they must put much more pressure on commercial companies, especially I'd say supermarkets, to make the effort.

The situation in Europe didn't come about from companies doing it off their own backs! It was legislation, penalties etc govts have to make it NOT worth companies while to NOT make the effort.

When you buy something and there's like THREE layers of plastic packaging it's just...so disheartening!

I'd also say food waste by food retailers needs tackled, too much perfectionism (perfectly shaped and coloured raw products) and I really think we've gone too far on shelf life regs, use by and best before dates are way too cautious now.

I personally also think it's ridiculous to lambast people who travel for a holiday 1-2 times a year short haul when I'm pretty sure there's MANY more flight miles undertaken by people travelling "for business" most of the time these trips are not necessary especially with modern tech - conference calls, video calling etc. There are very few times when business travel is genuinely necessary.

"Also, we have regular flights between the north and south of our own tiny little island because the trains are so shit and expensive." Totally agree with this. I well remember when the trains were nationally controlled, yea they weren't perfect but they WERE better managed and more reasonably priced than they are now! My dad was army and with "home" in Scotland we regularly travelled from south England to glasgow by train as it was easier and cheaper than even driving! This was 70's, 80's into early 90's.

When I moved back after splitting from ex (also army) and I had to do travel between Scotland and England for dd to see her dad it was a total ballache! AND very expensive. Yea there's supposedly cheaper "advance" fares to buy but even they're not particularly cheap, and I found out the hard way not to use them to be honest because my journeys would often include travelling with minimum 2 different companies up to 4! With the advance tickets you have to travel on the correct train, if a train run by one of the other companies is delayed tough shit! You've missed your train, have to pay full fare to continue your journey so paying twice and can only claim a refund if it's quite a long delay and even then only the fare relating to the delayed train, which for me was often the first train either end, which was a fairly short "local" journey.

Depending where ex was at the time it was often very much cheaper, easier and quicker to fly down. I was a single mum on a bloody tight budget with a young child who would get bored and fractious on a long complicated train journey possibly with long waits at intervals in journeys OF COURSE I'm going to choose to fly. And I bloody hate flying!

On transport our govts (of whatever colour!) needs to get their heads out of thinking sodding London is the bloody centre of the U.K. Transport wise! The east-west routes in particular are a Fucking joke!

"But dh has a job that involves him flying from UK to USA and back every week." Does he work in USA and uk or is he really meant to work in USA? What's the job and can he REALLY not utilise modern tech to cover the role? Or could the company not manage their employee management better?

"Work places need to be more flexible and change working practices - so things like more home working to enable people to not travel as much." Yep totally agree with that too, said so on the mn "sponsored" thread asking how employers could make "mums" lives easier too. Companies are FAR too entrenched in the mindset of having employees on the premises all the time - ridiculous in this day and age.

And simple things like I've worked for companies that INSISTED on all emails being printed off for filing, or even worse for multiple files - completely unnecessary when an electronic file could easily be created and saved in multiple ways for backup purposes.

As a Scot living on the coast it completely bewilders me how NO uk govt has properly investigated or invested in tidal and wind power, too many politicians beholden to energy supplies! Especially in USA.

The posts about housing remind me of the programme on recently about social housing, while this wasn't the focus the housing looked at in Vienna iirc was built with such considerations in mind and even where it wasn't simple things like there being a spa and pool and I think a gym and other such amenities on site meant not only a more pleasant living environment but would of course also mean the residents aren't travelling to use such amenities. In many towns and cities in the uk now, even though we're a small country the kind of things people like or even NEED to use regularly are bloody miles away!

If we had communities like in the past, with local shops and amenities there'd be a lot less travel happening.

My mum grew up in a city yet didn't learnt to drive until in her late 30's. Yea public transport was better but also the layout of the city was better then too. The supermarket was LOCAL not 10 miles away on an "industrial estate" that could only be reached by car, I remember being fascinated when visiting grans and being able to walk to not only the supermarket (which mainly sold processed items) but also the greengrocer, baker, fishmonger, butcher, pharmacy were all a 10 min walk away. As was the school, parks, swimming pool, footie pitch, GP surgery, hairdressers etc. The area has now been "modernised" with the old housing torn down as no longer fit for purpose and new housing put up (but far fewer flats or even 2 storey houses, tons of bungalows meaning more land used for housing) but also the old shops, pool and pitch have gone with the land used for housing! Yes we need housing but it doesn't HAVE to be bungalows with front and back gardens! And those communities need to BE communities! Not just cos of the "green" side of things but for people's welfare.

In many towns and cities in the uk now, even though we're a small country the kind of things people like or even NEED to use regularly are bloody miles away!

Yes to this. It needs urgent looking into.

Unless the government put various measures in place before taking drastic action it would be the same shit show that it always is.

FractalChaos re plastic bags in Australia, that "ban" is completely toothless as it only relates to the lightweight plastic bags. Instead shops skirt the law by giving out slightly thicker plastic bags - allowed because these are "reusable" . Of course they are no more reusable than the old style of supermarket carrier bags. Except they use more plastic so actually worse!

Supermarkets need to be refilling stations. Get your container, go fill up your washing powder/fabric softener/coffee/sugar/dry foods/whatever.

The amount of packaging supermarkets create is scandalous. And most say ‘not currently recycled’

Disposable coffee cups. Ban them. Nobody NEEDS a coffee out and about.

Definitely more working from home. I still don’t get flying to a meeting, that can be done via phone or video call. We have the technology.

It scares me how many of us there are, how much waste we make, and no real changes are happening.

I would be happy with such restrictions, but any government would be voted out immediately. Recently where I live, the supermarket stopped giving out free plastic bags. The public reaction was like the supermarket had started chopping people's heads off as they walked in.

What we need is a worldwide environmental dictactor that rules with an iron fist.

They need to focus on the manufacturers. Get rid of the dollar store shit, the one use plastic rubbish fast food joints hand out (1 billion happy meals a year), all those pocket money type toys, stop manufacturing everything in China or other low cost centres and shipping it around the world. Of course people will then kick off about the increased cost of home manufactured goods but that’s the cost of saving the earth.

Oh and stop concreting over everything and building more shops and houses we don’t need and plant trees and legislate more green spaces in cities to help with cooling etc.

It's difficult as well because there are competing factors. For example in climate terms a diesel engine is good as less greenhouse gases, but more particulates to cause asthma and respiratory illness. Some people want companies to move to glass over plastic bottles for plastic waste, but this causes more fuel use in transport.

I did wonder how many XR types were hypocrites as a lot of them had a gap year round the world vibe to them...

"Oh and stop concreting over everything" omg yes! I remember when we had the floods in 2007 talking to an environmental scientist type person (not totally sure on job title as a while ago, but his job was to do with impact of building on the environment) and being shocked to learn that people didn't need planning permission to concrete over gardens - front or back - when it seemed clear to me as I'd noticed the areas most affected were ones where many homeowners had put in (usually poorly done) patios and decking and paved driveways that at least part of the problem was when we had a lot of rain the water couldn't get to the bloody ground!

Yes I'm very aware of the housing crisis but there are TONS of buildings lying derelict PLUS we seem to have an aversion to flats in this country while being BLIND to the fact we have very little land here to utilise so the logical answer is to either refurbish or demolish and rebuild on the sites of the derelict buildings (we've several STREETS full of these in my local town but the council only step in when they become dangerous! Recently we had an incident where kids mucking about near one - but not somewhere they shouldn't have been - were almost seriously injured when the wall of one collapsed! There was uproar! But all they've done is "stabilised" it) and/or to build good quality flats.

On the programme I mentioned there were even a couple of excellently designed flats/estates created in uk (but back in the 60's), so it CAN be done - we need the political will for it and as voters we can pressurise our mps on this.

Our local MP got a load of angry emails apparently re the incident I mentioned earlier.

I’d leave. We rely on air travel to see family and for our livelihood. I would support changes that would lead to less emission like increased infrastructure for electric vehicles/tax breaks when purchasing or selling them coupled with the move away from coal to nuclear. Tax breaks for eco businesses/VAT exemptions/soft child restriction policy (I.e. limiting the number of children the state will provide services to -with exceptions where families fall on hard times - as opposed to a limit on how many children people can have). But I would not support changes that place restrictions on individuals.

general public?on mnet??wow

@Graphista is right. The problem with flats is that they are treated like to poor persons option in the uk. We live in an old flat. 1900 sqft, high ceilings, and no garden to much around with. Well built flats with enough room to actually live in would be wonderful! I’d choose a large flat over a 3-bed semi any day!

Also, for anyone who hasn’t heard the news today it might be of interest that plastics have been found in arctic snow. Interesting read

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/science-environment-49295051

There's a lot of slactivists out there who will happily campaign about plastic straws getting stuck in a turtle's nose while doing nothing significant themselves.

I think any big changes would be opposed. People don't want to give up £50 flights to Europe or lift sharing.

I also agree infrastructure needs to be changed. Public transport is ridiculous in this country, a trip to town from my village 5 miles away costs £2.80 one way meaning it is cheaper for a family to run a car than regularly use public transport (I did the sums once) in many areas.

Exactly bogglesgoggles

My parents and all their siblings and my dd have all been pretty much totally raised living in flats, nothing wrong with them if well designed and plenty of space (not saying we've always had that.

Current flat is converted Victorian tenement - definitely designed by a man, the conversion - HUGE living room and hall teeny kitchen and bathroom with fuck all storage!

But yes, well designed flats with space and storage is absolutely possible and needed.

And yes our attitudes to housing in this country is shocking!

The only acceptable housing is an owned 3+ bedroom detached house with front and back gardens...

But that's dream land! Most people will never afford such a place.

I'm 47, I'll never own, but it really don't understand the snobbery about this, again from my experiences in Europe renting is considered perfectly acceptable even normal. I actually quite like that I'm not the one responsible for a mortgage, repairs and maintenance!

But flats in Europe do tend to be better quality and better maintained (but then there's often more stringent legislation of landlords too)

We do not have the space here, I swear some people need to go look at a (to accurate scale) world map and see just how tiny uk is!

Here in Scotland the cultural history is "schemes" where there wasn't just the flats built but as I said the infrastructure for the community - that's what we need to bring back.

Estates where it's not just housing but there's a community centre, park, sports pitches, maybe even a pool, shops, amenities...

And even the shops/amenities offices can be in flat style buildings, say community centre on ground floor with a common meeting area and offices/units for GP and hairdresser etc on higher floors (but a lift in the building for those who need it)

When this was how communities were laid out, not only was it convenient it helped create the sense of community and your GP/nurse/dentist knew the locals and their families and it helped them do their jobs better too.

I know this will sound hypocritical in that I've flown to America but... while here it's become really clear that recycling and reducing plastic use/waste is waaaay down on the general population's radar.

So many throw away items at almost every meal we've had. The theme parks are one big climate change problem!

Will it just be the public getting the totalitarian treatment whilst Harry and Emma Thompson carry on as they are?

Disposable coffee cups. Ban them. Nobody NEEDS a coffee out and about.

I know someone with a disability who does to keep them going when out, the washing up and carrying spare cups can cause hardship, like removing bendy plastic straws caused hardship to someone else disabled I know.

Well in 20 years when we are all using ration books we can look back at this thread

@Jsmith99

Correct. China’s totalitarian system has a far better chance of driving through the changes in behaviour that are needed than the West’s wishy washy liberal democracies:-)

As long as we, collectively, are free to choose how we each live our lives according to personal need and preference, nothing will change. Combine that with a political system that’s basically a popularity contest, and it’s a total non-starter.

All those saying “corporations” need to act you so realise they are entirely led by us the consumers? If we stop buying and take direct action they have to respond.

But we won’t stop buying - that’s the point. Any corporation that chooses to internalise the true environmental costs of production and then tries to pass these in to the consumer will go out of business. If all corporations are required to internalise and pass on these costs, then prices will rise across the board - and the cost of living will shoot up.

Part of the problem is even well meaning people don’t get it. There’s so much hand wringing over plastic but that’s not the problem for climate change. Those massive thick paper bags from Morrison’s that probably get chucked straight in the recycling and not reused most of the time are much worse from a carbon point of view than a thin plastic bag. Likewise the new thicker plastic bags you can buy that are only better if reused multiple times. Even a nice cotton shopping bag needs to be reused a ludicrous number of times to be better than a plastic bag.

Obviously we need to deal with the plastic issue too but it’s not the same thing.

The thing is, things like restricting the use of cars only works in places where there's a viable alternative.

If you live rurally, there's no choice. My town has no bus routes - there's one community bus that runs to the local large town and back. Twice a week. That's it. The trains don't start until gone 9am so you can't commute to work that way either. If you have a job in a different town you have no choice but to drive. Cycling is impossible because the roads are un-lit, windy and narrow. You might be able to manage it occasionally in the summer but only if you work in the next village over.

Our little town has very few jobs. Certainly not enough for the number of people who live there. So you could ban cars, but people wouldn't be able to work unless the government was willing to spend millions on improving public transport so it was available pretty much 24/7. It won't happen so people need their cars.