To think the roads are becoming more unsafe

[Solonelywastheballard]

I've been driving for 16 years and never had an accident. I've lived in two major cities and driven all over the country.

I would consider myself an experienced and very good driver. I've never had an issue on the roads. Until this last month.

Two weeks ago a man became very very aggressive with me. I was really shaken for a while, he looked like a proper thug. This was because I overtook a parked car when he was coming in the opposite direction. I had plenty of time to get round, it's a 20 mph road with speed bumps. He deliberately sped right up, zoomed up to me as I was passing the parked car didn't stop until he was almost touching my bumper, I reversed out the way, he the drove beside me and started spouting abuse at me, calling me a stupid foreign bitch. I thought he was going to get out the car and rip my head of he was so angry. (I'm English and white btw)

Then today I stopped at a roundabout to give way to a car on the right and a van driver drove up the back of me. Another tattooed thug. Shouting about how I shouldn't have stopped I should just have carried on driving to keep the flow of traffic moving. I've noticed people have less and less regard for giving way at roundabouts, he's obviously one of them. I said he needed to take a driving course because you have to giveway to the right.

My dh has also had two road rage incidents in the last couple of weeks while I've been in the car - one was a thug on a bike.

I feel like the roads aren't safe and the world is being taken over by bully boy men. Right now I don't want to get behind the wheel again but my DS is disabled and I need to drive for him.

Is anyone else feeling like the roads are becoming lawless or is it just me.

Just because less people die these days, doesn't mean roads are any safer. It means people are using more safety measures in their car so that if they do crash, they're less likely to get injured or killed. The number of casualties might have decreased, but I'm not sure the number of accidents has.

How do you measure safety? Do you measure it by the amount of death and serious injury, or by how likely you are to have your car damaged? Most people go with death and injury.

Yes there are more accidents, because more cars and more congestion. But that has caused a reduction in average speed, along with car safety features has led to a huge reduction in death and injury. That's safer in my book.

But also, the roads themselves are safer. More cycle lanes, better road layouts, more traffic calming measures, better signage. Things like mini roundabouts to slow traffic that never existed years ago.

People might get a feeling that it's more dangerous, but the actual facts show otherwise. Our roads have never been safer.

YANBU. Been driving for nearly 30 years and noticed the change.

The biggest change in that time is that a journey across town that took you 15 mins then takes you 45 mins now. You're journey time has tripled, because your speed is a third of what it used to be. How can that reduction in speed not be safer?

there’s some strange sense of entitlement that makes them believe they are always right.

^^exactly this. Some of the MN driving threads are baffling frankly. There are lots of shades of grey, we all make mistakes driving (well unless you don't drive that it). Yes, hoggers are annoying but tailgaters are more dangerous but hoggers there's an obsession with for some reason.

And whoever's mum who said if you have time to hoot your horn then there's time to brake is absolutely spot on. Concentrate on your driving rather than other people's.

There should also be a driving charge of 'escaping from the cunt farm' that carries 6 points. For aggression, tailgating, weaving through lanes, making obscene gestures at people. Driving shows peoples true character I think.

But also, the roads themselves are safer. More cycle lanes, better road layouts, more traffic calming measures, better signage. Things like mini roundabouts to slow traffic that never existed years ago.

This really depends whereabouts in the country you are, I think, as lots of areas in he country don't have any of those things. As ever, people are posting from their own perspective and view. As someone who lives rurally, I can say we don't have any of the things you've listed. Or if we do, they haven't really improved in the last 10-15 years.

Rural roads around here are poorly lit, narrow and badly maintained. Even the so-called "main" roads are full of pot-holes, often have no road-markings and have overgrown hedges. There aren't any cycle lanes unless you're in town. I can think of one roundabout within 30 minutes drive in any direction from my house - the rest of it is junctions, mostly surrounded by overgrown hedges so visibility is poor.

Urban areas might have better signage and better roads but a lot of rural councils don't have the funds to spend on improving the roads. The road out of my town was recently resurfaced and it's bumpier than it was beforehand!

But also, the roads themselves are safer. More cycle lanes, better road layouts, more traffic calming measures, better signage. Things like mini roundabouts to slow traffic that never existed years ago.

My local authority painted some lines on existing roads and claimed they had created X km of new cyclepaths. No, they hadn't, they had painted some lines on some roads, and most of the so-called cycle paths stopped when the road narrowed or went over a roundabout. Talking of roundabouts. The image shows a safe roundabout for all road users in The Netherlands. Its the standard urban design there. All roundabouts are like that. I fail to see why increased traffic volume in the UK has kept up with road safety measures.

As ever, people are posting from their own perspective and view.

Of course, hence the only way to get an objective view is to look at the figures.

Fewer people are being killed or seriously injured per year than in the past. With far more people using the roads. Dress it up however you like, but that means it's safer than it was.

I regularly have cause to drive a rather ancient 7.5t lorry and the amount of idiot drivers who cut me up on roundabouts, either by undertaking or overtaking to squeeze through a tiny gap and beat me to the exit is insane. I have to drive even more slowly than I would like just to be safe as the visibility from a lorry is not great and these cars whizz up at speed. Last week I was joining an A road from a slip road and someone behind me (on the slip road) decided to use the slip road as an undertaking lane, so I was halfway out on to the A road and had this idiot squeezing past me on my left to get ahead of me, pulling on to the A road just millimetres in front of me!
I think roundabouts are the worst these day though, even when driving my normal car. People seem to speed up round them instead of driving round at a steady speed.

The roads may be "safer" but everyone is in a hurry and there seem to be selfish drivers whose journey is more important than anyone else's everywhere these days.

Lifecraft Of course, hence the only way to get an objective view is to look at the figures.

Fewer people are being killed or seriously injured per year than in the past. With far more people using the roads. Dress it up however you like, but that means it's safer than it was.

Has the tool of comparison passed you by? Has it never occurred to you that those who order statistics to be commissioned have a vested interest in providing "good" statistics?

So when you say "far more people use the roads" we need to compare different types of road user. Obviously, car safety and modern technology does a lot for car users, but if journeys by bike or pedestrian numbers have reduced, then we need to take that into account.

Then we can learn more still from comparing those figures with those in other countries. Obviously if other road users are being deterred from using the roads due to poor infrastructure for other road users, saying that roads are safer than ever is only meaningful for motorised vehicular transport.

And that's not a very desirable state of affairs when we are all under a duty to be more mindful of the environment.

@QualCheckBot Has the tool of comparison passed you by? Has it never occurred to you that those who order statistics to be commissioned have a vested interest in providing "good" statistics?

Tinfoil hattery at it's best. Are you seriously suggesting these figures aren't true. It's common knowledge to all involved in the motoring industry (as I am) that the number of KSI RTAs is far lower than it ever was. And we have far more cyclists on the roads than at any time since the 1950s when car ownership began to take off. Cyclist KSI RTAs are included in the figures, so even with far more cars and cyclists, KSI incidents have reduced.

This thread is the perfect example of people feeling something is true, and not liking the facts being presented that it isn't.

Driving/cycling/walking on our roads is far safer than it used to be. The facts don't give two hoots for anyone's perceptions or hunches.

Lifecraft I don't know if you ever use your brain to think with, but have a go. It doesn't really hurt!

There might be more cyclists in London and a couple of other cities, but having lived in The Netherlands and being able to compare the two, this is a really unsafe country for non-vehicular road users.

Driving/cycling/walking on our roads is far safer than it used to be. The facts don't give two hoots for anyone's perceptions or hunches.

Hardly anyone walks on country roads in the UK! Its far too dangerous! I know that I cycled far more in The Netherlands than here, the reason being that its much too dangerous in the UK and there is almost no provision for cyclists. The cycle paths are not separated from the road by kerbs, they are not consistent, the roundabouts are unsafe for cyclists, there is no cycle parking provision that is secure outside shops, etc. Have you really never been to The Netherlands or even Denmark and cycled around or do you actually go everywhere by car?

I am sure I am not the only person to feel that the roads are too dangerous to cycle or walk on in the UK outside the cities.

Did you miss the bit where I said to compare the statistics of types of road user with number of journeys and compare it with other countries? Is this something that is really that hard to comprehend?

It really is dispiriting to try to discuss things with a person who is obviously so welded to their car that they cannot envisage what it is like to use another form of transport, or who believes everything they are told.

And yes, I know this post isn't only about cyclists and pedestrians but the local authority gave up maintaining the footpath along my road years ago so theres no-one that walks at all! Cause or effect! How to make roads safer? Reduce numbers of road users other than car drivers and their passengers to almost zero. Add in London figures of increased bike and pedestrians. Hey presto!

Honestly, the culture in this country is so depressing at times.

I am sure I am not the only person to feel that the roads are too dangerous to cycle or walk on in the UK outside the cities.

The key word in that is "feel". The facts don't care about your feelings. Or mine.

The OP asked if the roads are becoming more unsafe. She didn't asked if they were unsafe compared to Holland, Norway, Indonesia or Syria.

The answer is, no, they are not more unsafe. In fact they are safer than they were.

HTH

Right, Lifecraft your whole denial of the problems facing the quite frankly dreadful infrastructure in the UK for pedestrians, cyclists and horseriders is based on my use of the word "feel".

You know when you are at university, and you reach the later years of your study, and you learn different techniques of critical analysis.? You learn about a very useful tool called comparison. It enables differing statistics in different countries to be compared.

This is useful. Unless you wish to deny that other places may have done it better. In your case actually, I have to say that the most apt comparator would be the former Soviet Union's Five Year Plans, massaged statistics and one solitary state-sanctioned newspaper, where citizens were regailed with statistics containing "the truth". That's why it was called Pravda.

So off you trot to Pravda with your little statistics, and stop demeaning my intelligence with your utter nonsense. Because you really do need to learn some better discursive techniques to be even remotely convincing.

Indicating seems to be optional these days.

You know when you are at university, and you reach the later years of your study, and you learn different techniques of critical analysis.? You learn about a very useful tool called comparison. It enables differing statistics in different countries to be compared. This is useful.

If you think back to primary school tests, you are taught to read the question, and make sure not to answer something that hadn't been asked.

The OP is asking if the roads are becoming more unsafe. To answer that question, comparatives with other countries isn't useful at all. In fact it's useless. What is useful is comparing our roads of the past to our roads of the present.

Unfortunately, this will be lost on you, because we think you know the answer, the facts don't back up your answer, so you'll perform all kinds of mental gymnastics to convince yourself you are right.

But you'll still be wrong.

If you think back to primary school tests, you are taught to read the question, and make sure not to answer something that hadn't been asked.

You do know how degree level papers are marked, don't you? This isn't primary school. You answer the question but you must have more than a yes or no answer...you don't just write "yes" or "no" and get an honours or masters degree.

The OP is asking if the roads are becoming more unsafe. To answer that question, comparatives with other countries isn't useful at all. In fact it's useless. What is useful is comparing our roads of the past to our roads of the present.

You have provided no justification for this statement whatsoever.

Unfortunately, this will be lost on you, because we think you know the answer, the facts don't back up your answer, so you'll perform all kinds of mental gymnastics to convince yourself you are right.

Discursive reasoning is not "mental gymnastics". Neither is critical analysis. Debates move on, they evolve. If you really think "winning" a question on mumsnet can be done, then that's a bit of a problem for you.

You are actually arguing that I should believe you because you are right because you say you are right and you repeat the same thing over and over again. You are unable to use standard tools of discursive reasoning but claim to work in an industry which has a vested interest in promoting the increasing safety levels of Britain's roads, with a car-centric focus. I can tell you that you are not going to succeed and your criticisms fall on deaf ears because what you suggest is actually so backwards in terms of all modern measures of intelligence that to do what you suggest would be akin to going back to primary school and forgetting all the techniques of reasoned discussion that are valued in most areas of life.

You repeatedly deny it being useful to compare the UK to other European countries with more non-car based journeys. The Netherlands has for instance 27% of all journeys made by bicycle compared to I believe 2% in the UK.

You just aren't educated to a high enough level to have a meaningful discussion with. If you are educated to degree level, it has been a failure because you are unable to demonstrate standard techniques. You clearly have a vested interest in promoting the line that the UK roads are safer and are stuck on repeat. This is of course very useful for government agencies and vested interested bodies who have to justify how they have spent taxpayers' money, but not particularly useful to end users.

And you're still wrong.

OP: AIBU to thing the roads are becoming more unsafe?
Method: Look at the figures to see what used to happen, and what happens now.

Answer: YABU. More people are using them, yet fewer people are involved in KSI RTAs.

It's not hard. All the other nonsense you are spouting isn't relevant, and if you can't see that, you aren't half as bright as you think you are. Because I've outsmarted you, and I'm no genius!

Lifecraft can you provide any evidence to back up your oft repeated point?

Evidence that would stand up to legal scrutiny of course. Not just meaningless statistics. Evidence that could for instance stand up to challenge by an expert witness using comparison figures for other countries, or different types of journey in the one country.

And how do you think you can actually get people to believe you, or doesn't that matter. Production of a set of figures showing a pre-determined end goal is all that matters, and little uneducated functionaries like you are needed to produce them.

It's not hard. All the other nonsense you are spouting isn't relevant, and if you can't see that, you aren't half as bright as you think you are. Because I've outsmarted you, and I'm no genius!

Err, right. Ok. Well, you're certainly sounding very happy and less robotic, I'll give you that...

And you certainly are giving plenty of explanation as to why the roads are getting more unsafe, because if the figures say they're getting safer, theres no need to invest in improved infrastructure which is now standard elsewhere. No need to do anything at all in fact. Keep the status quo.

So to summarise Lifecraft:

Lifecraft: No. The roads are getting safer.

Qual: Reasoned argument.

Lifecraft: You are wrong. The roads are getting safer.

Qual: Different reasoned argument, with pictures.

Lifecraft: Wrong. The roads are getting safer. I have answered the question.

Qual: Diferent reasoned argument, points well backed up with statistics and critical analysis.

Lifecraft: Wrong. Reasoned argument is wrong. Debate is wrong. Examples are wrong. Critical analysis is wrong. Attempts to do so must be quelled. The roads are getting safer. Question is answered.

Qual: Try and improve your reasoning and provide proper evidence, not statistics massaged to produce a pre-determined result focussing on one measurement only.

Lifecraft: Wrong! Not available on this model! Crash!

Is this thread rage?

I've noticed that people are too important to wait. A road near us is closed so more traffic on another route as a result.

We all queue patiently but I observed people speeding up the slip roads and barging out as they were too important to wait or going up side roads and again expecting people to let them out lower down

Blatantly going through red lights and making it difficult for right turners is another one. Driving too fast on the wrong side of the road overtaking parked cars and not considering others whose right of way it is.

Idiots coming off slip roads and not being prepared to wait in queue to leave so Pushing in at the last minute or deliberately being in the lane which goes in the other direction as it is shorter and expecting to be let in later.

Selfish and entitled

Many seem to rely on great brakes rather than driving responsibly

I think modern cars may have some fault in regards to people's attitude to driving now. Cars are so much easier to drive now. You feel very safe and can go very fast without actually feeling like it. They handle round corners well and , brake very well.

So all of a sudden everyone thinks they are the Stig. And everyone else is just an idiot getting in the way of their amazing rally car race driving. If they were driving a car more like how they were 30 years ago, they probably wouldn't drive like such arse wipes.

The OP is asking if the roads are becoming more unsafe.

To be fair the answer to this depends on your definition of safe.

I meant safe in regard of getting from A - B without anyone hitting your car or you encountering physical or verbal abuse from another road user. Basically journeys peaceful and incident free.

A 70 year old woman started beeping me yesterday

Did she wave her birth certificate at you as she beeped?

To be fair the answer to this depends on your definition of safe.

That's a fair point. My definition of safe is arriving at your destination without being injured or killed. On my definition, the roads are safer than they were.

I meant safe in regard of getting from A - B without anyone hitting your car or you encountering physical or verbal abuse from another road user. Basically journeys peaceful and incident free.

On you definition, probably not. There are more collisions than there used to be, although most are low speed resulting in minor vehicle damage only. Being in the industry, I'm not aware of any figures comparing verbal abuse on the roads now and in the past.

Maybe she had a birthday badge on 😁