Attitudes at work to working mothers, particularly if part-time

[Notcontent]

Sorry - just feel like a moan and wonder if other people feel like this.

I work in a professional role, in a job that can require long hours and can also pay extremely well. I am lone parent so can’t do those long hours and so I work in a role which pays well, but not compared to most of my colleagues. I also work part time (four days a week) and obviously my pay reflects that.

But I always feel that my boss (who earns about 10 times what I do or more) and others think I am not pulling my weight. My work keeps banging on about work/life balance, etc but ultimately I feel that as a woman, with caring responsibilities, I will always be seen as not doing enough.

I work part time, 2 days per week. I have a ridiculous workload and I am sure that people in the team forget that I am part time. I have raised it with my line manager asking if the workload can be reduced proportionately and got told that it is my choice to be part time so I need to manage it. I don't actually want promotion but if I did I would have to go full time to be considered.

@missbattenburg What research have you seen that says employees are only productive for such few hours a day? The research I have seen says that for full time employees working 7.5 hours a day, 6 hours of those will be productive. When I think of waste of time meetings and supervisions, that does not surprise me.

Many jobs are hourly paid. You get a contract for however many hours and a set salary. I'm happy to pull my weight during my hours but once it's 5 I'm off because I'm no longer being paid. If the boss isn't able to hire enough staff to get the work done that's not my burden to bear. Why should people work for free?

I haven't experienced this from your position but in every job I've had part time staff were under pressure from bosses to get 5 days work done in their 3 day week.

And also noticed an assumption from colleagues they should stay late / work through lunch on their days as if they're just getting 2 days off free.

Sorry OP it's shit and hopefully it will change

If you work in a job that expects extra hours worked, you either do them or accept you will not last long in that job.
I do a job with fixed hours. It is paid a lot less than the job I previously did with extra hours taken for granted.
In terms of it being the bosses issues to manage, yes it is, but if you do not pull your weight, expect that boss to manage you out of a job.

There's no ideal work scenario for mothers.

Full time - barely see your children, spend weekends doing chores, too much stress, people think you have abandoned your children

Part time - out of the loop at work, disproportionately low pay compared to workload, people think you have an easy life as you're not working every day, pension situation

Give up work - can be impossible to get back into work later when DCs are older, financial dependence on partner and vulnerability, pension catastrophe, people think you are lazy / wet blanket / taking the piss.

We really can't win can we?

I worked full time as a primary teacher before having DC1. Returned part time which was manageable, very long days eg leaving house at 7am to get to nursery and back home at 6pm,working in the evenings, but I had long holidays. Dc2 was born and I remained part time after mat leave. Getting 2 kids out of the house was much harder and DC2 was often in hospital due to health condition. No family nearby but we coped. DH frequently worked internationally but also from home quite regularly.

Tipping point for me was becoming ill myself with a horrible chronic illness. I physically cannot teach now,even part time. So I find myself being a Sahm which isn't what I wanted. There are advantages of course, I can go to school events, pick the children up myself which they like, we have a much slower pace of life now. I do want to get back to work in the future though, health permitting.

My F/T colleagues have two coffee breaks and a lunch break every day - the whole team. I work in a slightly different role and in a different office as a result, but ultimately they are categorically not working for 8-10 hours every week. I'm contracted at 90% FTE and work different length days across a 5 day working pattern (my choice entirely, and I'm about to move to 80% FTE, again my choice). I have pointed out to management that I do more hours on average than other people. I'm sure the rest of the team do work later on occasion, but I take work home too - mostly out of guilt. Fortunately for me (at the moment) I work for really lovely people who focus on output rather than physical time here, and I think I'm doing well enough that they value me.

I've always been happy to pull my weight within my contracted hours just not after. Often there is no real reward for overtime, you just get treated like a mug. I'd maybe do it if there was something in it for me.

If you work in a workplace where extra hours goes with the job, then insisting you work only your part-time contracted hours is not going to go down well with colleagues. You can complain about this all you like, but your colleagues resentment is perfectly understandable.

@Snuggybuggy

If you're hourly paid and not expected to get a set workload done then as I said my comments don't apply to you.

Although, just to pick up another point. My dh is a middle manager so can't just hire as many as he wants, it has to go through his boss of course! So he really is stuck with other people's work if they don't do it. Easy to overlook that ppl his position are people with families and an entitlement to a private life too. If I went back to work and stopped facilitating them all by sacrificing my own career, then his team would suddenly get a shock I expect! They'd have to actually do their work.

I've worked with part time and full time working mums (teaching).

The best line manager I've ever had was the first person out the building every day - but she worked late at night once her children were in bed.

I also worked with a part time colleague who didn't pull her weight in terms of shared tasks - she worked 3.5 days per week so we would have expected her to contribute in that ratio - but she did nothing. She did however have constant time off due to child which we had to cover for - in our school there was an expectation that if you were off you should at least give some guidance as to what your classes should be working on, but she never did this, therefore again further increasing the workload of the rest of the department.

I now work with a part time colleague who is incredibly respected and seen to be a great team member. She does more than her contracted hours - as we all do - but she feels she does that in proportion (so if a full time person did maybe an hour extra per day so does she for the days she works).

I don't think it's about part time v full time, I think it's more that some individuals are more likely to contribute fully than others - which is a personality thing. I'm not for a moment saying it's right that anyone works more than their contracted hours but sadly that's where education is - and if some (full time or part time) don't do this it means others pick up the slack.

but Mayagoldchoc I actually think one of the biggest reason work place culture is like it is is because of SAHM- most senior people I know tend to be parents (product of age) but the men with SAHW don't have to consider childcare etc and so can be really flexible in the hours they work because they know that their wife isn't going to complain /pick up the slack- so they just say -- can we chat about this now (at 6pm) - Can we delay this meeting ...etc and anyone who can't (eg people who have to pick up their children from childcare or relieve a babysitter/other parent) - is seen as inflexible/loses out- ditto impromptu socialising (which can be important for team bonding/networking) .. so the whole culture stays stuck in the 1950s

I think you have to weigh up if a culture of being expected to work for free is worth the perks of the job. Likewise if taking on a promotion to management is worth the stress and extra work.

I'd never wanted to be promoted to manager in my previous work. The pay isn't brilliant and they are always off sick with stress.

I think the issue isn't necessarily part time v full time but expectations of both employers and employees. If your contract is for 35 hours then that's what you work. Not 50-60 hours. If the employers need people to do more than their contracted hours then that's fine, but it's either paid or toil. It's not free labour under the guise of "commitment"

I am lucky I have good employers who are flexible. It doesn't hurt that all the partners have family and are all hands on parents so understand that there are times that people need to be out the office. I work part time 27 hours over 3 days and am happy to do overtime when I am able. In our busy times (December and January) I do work 50 plus hours per week but not for free. I get toil which helps massively in school holidays. I can take pay if I would prefer. Flexibility does work both ways.

There are days where I cannot stay late. I shouldn't be made to feel guilty for that.

That said, some colleagues do say " must be nice to work part time". I just say to them the can request it, as there are a few part time people without children, but remind them part time hours comes with part time pay.

Bringing in a standard four day week would really help parents as it's helpful for both parents to cover more of the childcare and also provides a better work life balance for everyone.

My experience of working 4 days was that I had a five day plus workload to deliver which when combined with a bullying manager resulted in massive burnout for me.

We really need to rethink work in this country in order to share out the work more fairly across society and to make Work more compatible with family life.

Absolutely @margotsdevil. In my last teaching post I was contracted 0.44 yet I regularly worked 35 - 40 hours a week. It just comes with the job in teaching. Unfortunately as a job sharer you're constantly trying to do enough to support your partner, as it doesn't feel fair to leave them with extra work to do. Also, in a job share the communication which is very much necessary, is quite time consuming.

I feel like there are so many excellent teachers who should be in the classroom still, but have left the profession because it's not the family friendly gig they hoped it would be. Full timers have to work 60 hour weeks, part timers are left in a dead end with no career prospects and working the hours of 1.5 people.

I'm sure it's similar in other professions too.

men with SAHW don't have to consider childcare etc and so can be really flexible in the hours they work because they know that their wife isn't going to complain /pick up the slack- so they just say -- can we chat about this now (at 6pm) - Can we delay this meeting ...etc and anyone who can't (eg people who have to pick up their children from childcare or relieve a babysitter/other parent) - is seen as inflexible/loses out- ditto impromptu socialising (which can be important for team bonding/networking) .. so the whole culture stays stuck in the 1950s

A headteacher I worked with in the past (female, 50s, with grown up children and house husband) was just like this.

@jennymanara - Study published last year by Bureau of Labor Statistics (US) backed up by similar UK-based research by Ginger Research (also 2018).

I work FT 5 days and do overtime
I don’t really classify 4 days as PT to be honest !

But it’s interesting as I can and do work the late hours as have a sahp

I wonder what would happen if were a single mother and had to leave on time , I guess I would do the same as my other
Colleagues and just leave ?

But for me PT is a few hours here and there not 4 full days !

The working world is a brutal place these days . Focus on your results and fuck em all

@CuckooCuckooClock - yes, I work part time with very variable hours. One of my best direct reports is also part-time and one of my favourite clients is also part-time. Every one of us will ensure if there's something urgent that it gets done, but the timing of work flexes so key parenting commitments are met e.g. school / nursery collection until bedtime and then resolve whatever was urgent that day. I'm not sure what your point was?

Different roles have different expectations and requirements, those arguing "presenteeism" are thinking of something entirely different, referring to companies where "everyone" arrives at 8 and leaves at 7. There can be seasonal extra hours for some roles e.g. accountants will always be busy at year end, with more flex at other times of year. There are also roles where the point is to get the task done, not to do any particular hours e.g. agreeing a contract; much of the up-front work can be done in whatever flexible pattern you like apart from meetings but the final few days requires significant extra work to finalise everything because some people at the client will always leave their input until the last minute. It isn't the case that someone else can just pick it up because the responsibility rests with the senior team. When I was pregnant I had to do an 18 hour day to meet a deadline because a junior had massively screwed up, so I cancelled some meetings and took the next day off to rest; that's an example of flexibility going both ways.

For well paid professional jobs sometimes it's necessary to suck it up and do some extra hours because you're paid to get the task finished whether you're part-time or full-time. Companies need to remain reasonable however with any extra work fitted around commitments (e.g. leave at 5pm) and should be a lower overall workload than a full timer. If the patterns of work don't work for someone then they should look for a different type of role that has different expectations. It's an odd idea that part-timers are necessarily more efficient, efficiency and hard work in my experience depends on the individual person not how long their contracted hours are. It's sexist to say so, but in my experience senior women in general are significantly more efficient than men regardless of whether they have children or not, though I've met a few exceptions of particularly efficient men. I don't know why it is, maybe because they've felt a need to fight harder to prove themselves.

I'm saddened to hear there is still is shitty attitude towards pt workers.

In a previous job (pt) I worked 3 afternoons a week and I was chatting to the asst manager about something and she piped up with something along the lines of 'oh well yeah, it can't be bad. You get to sit on your arse in the time you're not here' I wished that were fucking true! I found out the Manager had been talking one of the others girls regarding my refusal to do do extra hours so I confronted her about it. I informed her it was none of her business why I didn't want to and as long as I did my contracted hours what on earth was the problem? At the time she was childless and only in her 20's. I think she's got kids of her own so would hope she understands that it's quite different and you can't just magic up childcare.

When I worked, I had a colleague comment that I was a 'part timer'. I simply replied that my salary reflected the fact that I did less hours. Fucking cheek.

Not: 'I'm really so sorry everyone I need to leave now to pick up the kids'.
But: 'Right, I've done everything I need to do. See you tomorrow.'
I am definitely using this. Thank you!

We need more equality with men. With a four day week a lot more women will be able to work "full time" hours and a lot more men will be doing more childcare and housework. Every parent will have one weekday at home with the kids.

I think this will really benefit society.

We need more equality with men

no, we need more understanding that men and women are not the same and what works for men in the workplace doesn't necessarily work for women, and that men are not the default.