to think sister-in-law should have put her brother on mother's PoA?

[mrsmootoo]

DH's sister has gone ahead (without consulting him) and set up Power of Attorney for their mother (who's been diagnosed with dementia). DH gets on well with his mother, but she's not in a state to really know what's happening. His relationship has been tricky with his sister over the years, but they do speak and we thought got on OK. Is she allowed to do this? Can it be challenged? She has also set up online banking for their mum and won't share the access info.

There's no reason that PoA needs to be given to all siblings. Usually it's the one who's close by/does the day to day admin such as shopping as they are the one who needs it.

My Uncle had PoA for my Grandmother as he lived with her whilst my father, although involved did not do the day to day stuff.

The (adult) grandchildren were notified at the time by the solicitors to ensure we had no objections - not sure if this was because were beneficiaries of the will or because we were close relatives. I think the PoA was granted after my Grandmother had lost capacity.

Why are you bothered? Having POA is a massive responsibility not a privilege.

Why are you bothered? Having POA is a massive responsibility not a privilege.

Quite!

A friend of mine has POA for his elderly parents and already this week has wasted an afternoon trying to sort out an issues with his DF's bank account. He had forgotten to take one piece of information with him, so all that had been achieved up till then was going to be shredded and he'll have to go back and start the whole process again on Friday. He's self-employed and this is his busy time - definitely not a responsibility to be envied or sought.

"A doctor has to sign the document to state that the person is medically capable to make decisions"
Not as a matter of course.

I have LPA for both parents and an aunt, and have set up LPA for myself and no doctors have been involved.

But if she has been diagnosed with dementia, and as 'not having capacity' when she signed it, it should be challenged!

Having dementia does not necessarily mean not having capacity. It depends on the stage and condition.

When I gave LPA to my brother and sister there was also a form for 'a person to be told' - someone who has to be told this is happening and can raise issues if they have any - a bit like reading the banns in church. Interesting that your brother wasn't even the 'person to be told'.

My Dad gave me POA, with my brother as sort of deputy - he would take over if I died.

This was because bro is hopeless with paperwork of any sort, & his wife handles the finances because he buries his head in the sand.
Could this be the case?

The question is, do you fear that the sister is going to abuse her position? The fact that you're asking to see the financial information suggests that you think she might, and then when she refuses to let you see, the fear builds.

IF (big IF) you find any evidence that that's the case, then take it to the OPG. Otherwise there's not a lot you can do, unless as PPs have said, the sister somehow forced/coerced her mother into signing when she didn't know what she was doing.

We did an on line POA for my mum when she was diagnosed with dementia (council tenant so no property and not a lot of money in banks etc). We did use a GP to confirm her mental capacity but it doesn't have to be a GP - you can use a solicitor or you can ask someone who's known the person for two or more years. It's just to say the person was in sound mind and understood the implications at the point they signed that sheet.

So, potentially, this could have been in operation for years and only just started being used.

We had both me and one of my sisters (the other was living abroad at the time so was just 'a person to be notified). My mum's consultant at the memory clinic advised having two people with 'joint and severally' responsibility. If one of us were no longer able to act as PoA (became ill, died, moved abroad and stepped down) the other one could take up the reins without hassle. It makes sense to have two people for that reason - if I'd gone under a bus a year into making the PoA, mum wouldn't have been seen to have mental capacity at that point so the state would have taken over.

TBH I've not had any problems with the PoA. I've managed to speak to her bank (who put me on the account, changed her address to mine for statements etc), sorted out her bills, spoken to medical people and social services when she became so ill she needed a care home. It's been a god-send to us but that could be the fact that mum has very little that we could 'take charge of' other than her physically. We got PoA for both (health and finance).

I would seriously need to see the date of the PoA and question the sense in only having SiL on it. If anything went wrong with her, your MIL family would have very little say in anything relating to MIL care, finances etc.,

BTW I agree with @TheRedBarrows. It's odd that your DH wasn't named as a person to be told. We named both my sister, who was living abroad, and her grown up son who was living in this country.

It does seem as if she's either naively sorted this out without legal advice or she's keeping all rather too close. Either way I would think she's on dodgy ground by not putting him as 'a need to know' person because of the next of kin issues. Plus, if SIL is refusing to let him see accounts etc., I'd be speaking to a solicitor as family should be able to check what's going on. That's the point of a PoA, to ensure someone trustworthy is taking the individual's best interests into account - not just spending cash willy-nilly. It's making the decisions that the PoA believes the individual would have made had they still had mental capacity.

The other thing to point out is that, whilst your MIL would have signed to say she allowed the PoA to be used immediately or when she lost mental capacity (as opposed to just when she lost mental capacity - which is very hard to prove), a person taking on PoA must only do so with the individual's consent.

So, for example, in my mum's case, I would never touch her bank account unless I got her permission to take money from it and I wouldn't speak to her GP unless I told her I needed to do so. She still has a mind and still makes her own decisions . Even in the care home recently she refused to have her insulin injection. The nurse said 'you do know what might happen if you refuse this don't you?' and mum said 'I'll die' - that was enough for the nurse to back away and say she couldn't do the injection. Luckily the next day mum was back to normal and has had her injection every day since. The care home, bless them, just kept a careful eye on her and the GP was on alert in case she collapsed that day. But she proved she had capacity to make that decision and you cannot force a grown up to do things even if the risk attached is great - that's safeguarding.

Once someone has given POA, that person can bring it into being at any point they like

My MILs stated quite clearly that PoA could only be invoked at the point at which she was unable to carry out her personal and financial life herself.

My sisters and I have POA for both our parents, jointly and separately. Our brother isn't included simply because he lives in another country. Us sisters have the power in the event of an accident or serious illness to take over their decisions when they are unable to make them. Can't remember if we have to have 2 of us or if we can make a decision solo - must check that even though any decisions would be made jointly even if we weren't all there at the same time. It would be done by phone.. We had to sign lots of forms but I don't think a doctor was involved but both parents still sprightly and very much of sound mind and physical health!

Someone can have dementia and still have capacity to consent to this.

Also if your parent does not have much money, then it makes sense to only be the person physically closest to them. My DP did not have POA, but his brother who could physically get cash out if needed, as well as pay bills, was.

I always find the correct site helps:

www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

Overview

A lasting power of attorney (LPA) is a legal document that lets you (the ‘donor’) appoint one or more people (known as ‘attorneys’) to help you make decisions or to make decisions on your behalf.

This gives you more control over what happens to you if you have an accident or an illness and cannot make your own decisions (you ‘lack mental capacity’).

You must be 18 or over and have mental capacity (the ability to make your own decisions) when you make your LPA.

You do not need to live in the UK or be a British citizen.

There are 2 types of LPA:

health and welfare
property and financial affairs

You can choose to make one type or both.

Make a lasting power of attorney

You can make a lasting power of attorney (LPA) online or using paper forms.

Either way, you need to get other people to sign the forms, including the attorneys and witnesses.

You can get someone else to use the online service or fill in the paper forms for you, for example a family member, friend or solicitor.

You must register your LPA or your attorney will not be able to make decisions for you.
Make an LPA online

Create an account to start your LPA.

You can:

get help and guidance at each step
save your forms and complete them later
review your answers and fix any mistakes

You need to print out the forms and sign them when you’ve finished.
Sign in to your account

Sign in to continue making your LPA.
Use the paper forms

Download the forms and print them out.
Signing the forms

You need to sign the forms before you send them off. They also need to be signed by:

the attorneys
witnesses
a ‘certificate provider’, who confirms you’re making the LPA by choice and you understand what you’re doing

Who can be a witness or certificate provider

Witnesses and certificate providers must be 18 or over.

Attorneys can witness each other sign, but they cannot:

witness you sign
sign as the certificate provider

You cannot be a witness if you’re the person appointing an attorney.
Get help

Ask the Office of the Public Guardian about help you can get if you:

do not have a computer or internet access
want to use the online service but need some help

This website might be helpful www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-the-public-guardian

For those mentioning it, there is space on the form for people to be notified.

The forms changed a few years ago. Before the change if you didn't have people to notify you had to have an extra certificate provider so it was common to just notify someone.

After the change you only need one certificate provider whether you notify anyone or not, so since the change I've had fewer clients who want to notify someone.

Is your DH upset because he was left out of being Mums attorney ? If so he should think again because being a POA is a thankless task. If his sister is happy to take care of their mother's affairs I'd let her get on with it.

Does your DH get involved in day to day support of his mum? If not, there is your answer. You can't be involved only when you want it. How do you know about this?

If you seriously doubt the intentions of his sister, then you can challenge the PoA- but that would seriously affect the relationship with his sister and perhaps his mum.

Your husband should be thanking his lucky stars he’s not involved. It’s a complete pain in the arse.

If she doesn't have capacity to understand the power of attorney then it's not legal - your brother can approach the court of protection. However a diagnosis of dementia doesn't automatically mean she doesn't have capacity, it depends on severity

Why does DH need access to his mum's online banking info?

I ask because if my brother had access to my mum's bank account it would be wiped out within days, which is why only I am allowed to access it as she knows I wouldn't touch a penny for myself.