Too think that dogs used for experments in the UK must be given the same welfare as any other service dog !

[PupsAndKittens]

Ok, so unpopular opption but if ;as a final result; dogs have to be tested on, then they MUST have the same welfare rights as any other dog in the country.

For example, these puppies are never taken for walk and they are fed the bare minimum. Any other service dog and that would be highly illegal.

Labatories don’t even attempt to rehome after the experiment, and go for the easy option of euthanasia. The police wouldn’t be allowed to do the same to a sniffer dog ( without proof that it’s for the best interest of the dog)

If the dog was cut open for surgery ( example it had cancer!) The vets wouldn’t then suggest immediately after it was euthanised ( again, unless anything went wrong and that it would give the dog no quality of life)

If a madman went to a dog park and shot all the puppies, they could’ve get up to a decade in prison.

unpopular opinion, But unfortunately drugs have to be tested on something (although I personally think it should be murderers and rapists!). However that doesn’t mean that the dogs used should be treated as second-class citizens, especially as they do just as an important job then those that work in services such as police, fire and disabilities.

What needs to happen, is two main priorities:

1. Puppies up until their experiment, must be given a decent quality of life, just like any other puppy in any other service. This includes regular food and regular walks.

1. After there operation, all dogs must be attempted to be rehomed. Sorry but if every other dog is entitled to a fresh start, including strays, why should those that have suffered the most not be.

I know they do a lot already, but I think animal shelters particularly Battersea could do a bit more ( i’m not undermining the brilliant work that place does already ). Even if they offered to take half a bunch that would be something.

I just want to know what people feel about this. What I am really asking is how much welfare They should have prior and after their experiment. Or are they born second class citizens And not entitled to normal laws, because they are born to die. And before anyone attempts to rip me to pieces, I am both vegetarian (mostly vegan) and cruelty free with my cosmetics!

( PS sorry for two post in two days, however I have just read an article on this and it’s made me really angry at the hypocrisy of it all) [ sad]

@PupsAndKittens

A sniffer dog is COMPLETELY different from a lab animal and the job is not the same.

A sniffer dog is usually part of the handlers family and lives with them and works one to one with another human who is their handler.

A lab animal is NOT a pet nor is it kept in a human family environment.

Its like trying to say that large pack dogs kept in kennels which are used for fox hunting are the same as a much loved elderly farting poodle.

The people who work in these labs are saving human and animal lives through their work. It makes me angry when people who don’t fully grasp the impact that their work has suggest that they are cruel or immoral. Their work keeps us safe from dangerous chemicals and is needed for the development of life-saving medications.
There aren’t any real alternatives in many cases. Testing on bits of tissue is not the same as a whole animal and using human beings (without first testing on animals) is morally repugnant IMO. Testing on the poor and desperate with much higher risks is not an ethical alternative to testing on animals.

@Badcat666But both of those examples would have excaitly the same rights, When it comes to animal welfare!

They are raised in family groups until adulthood. They are not socialised to being with humans. They DO try to rehome the tiny number that haven't had any procedures.

but.. but... Animal welfare has nothing to do with giving an animal a name is so confused

What rights are you talking about specifically pups?

@SabineSchmetterling funnley enough, I am not questioning the experiments themselves, and I, with retreat, believe that if these tests save life’s then they must be done. What I am saying is that they deserve to have a love as any other animal, and treated with the same respect. There is no proof that these dogs wouldn’t make good pets.

My friend (hard core vegan!) took in a puppy that was severely ill (partly blind, but most importantly liver failure). My freind offered to take the dog off of someone, who locked it in the kitchen for majority of its life.

Did this dog live for long after being rehomed- No (dided 3 months latter). Did this dog have a happy end- yes, my freind made sure, that this dog had as high quality of life as possible, when he was living at hers and he loved her just as she loved him!

Just because these experiments are lethal doesn’t mean they don’t deserve a happy end. Where they can have a bit of piece after a year of suffering.

Human interaction, regular exercise, regular fresh air, to treat it as an individual (hence a name) but most importantly, to have a bit of a life after the experiment- even if they die a couple of months later, They still deserve an natural death!

@eveythingthelighttouches

The legislation surrounding lab animal care is vast and specific. Lab animal welfare is met significantly more than farm animals, one is a necessity, one is a luxury - are you vegan? Lab animals are honestly one of the best looked after animals in industry in the UK. Pain management is a priority, look up the 3 Rs. If a dog can be rehomed it will be, there's detailed legislation surrounding how many times an animal may be used, the severity of an experiment, whether euthanasia is better than the quality of life they'd have if they were able to wake, what can be done with the dogs after use. Honestly do some proper research, and I mean read the legislation, not the bloody sun 🙄🙄 Start with Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986.

Your points about wanting dogs rehomed, a dog that's undergone a procedure that'll permenantly affect its quality of life will be put down, and so it should be. No offence, but a suffering lab animal should be euthanized, not given to someone who thinks they can love it into a happy life and feel good about themselves

Just because these experiments are lethal doesn’t mean they don’t deserve a happy end. Where they can have a bit of piece after a year of suffering.

You do know what "lethal" means don't you? If they are part of an experiment which requires them to be killed to conduct the next stage of testing then they are euthanised pups. You know what that means don't you?

They be deaded. They be made deaded very humanly because it is cruel to let any animal suffer.

How do you know they are "suffering" for a whole year?

PRETTY sure welfare laws on lab animals would not allow this in the UK but I cannot be arsed to do research for you on your behalf if you can't be bothered.

To me a vegan feeding a cat or dog a vegan diet is cruel and makes that animal suffer.

Leaving a dog alone for hours on end whilst the owner is at work is making that animal suffer.

As i said, some are.
It is unsuitable for most.

Hopefully you will be pleased to read the following website.
science.rspca.org.uk/sciencegroup/researchanimals/ethicalreview/functionstasks/housingandcare/rehoming

@cornonthelog I do know the 3rs however there website say that most are unrehomeable, due to them not ever being in a human evioment. I think that this is utter ball!

Sorry but if strays, Who have spent their lives on the streets and dogs that come from abusive homes are rehomable, so are these dogs (And any duck for that matter!)

Thanks pups. We seem to keep cross posting with each other!
I'm pleased to inform you they get those things. Not names though.

It’s great that your friend took on a difficult pet but the fact is that there aren’t enough homes for dogs as it is and dogs are already being euthanised due to lack of homes. Many of those euthanised dogs would be significantly easier and more “adoptable” than a lab animal.
Besides, whether someone wants to adopt it is not the only thing to consider. The labs have to weigh up the quality of life after the experiment for the animal.
I still really don’t understand the name thing. Dogs don’t care if they have a name, they don’t understand words in any meaningful way. When people adopt rescue dogs they often change their names. As long as it has a similar number of syllables and you say it in that “calling the dog” tone they will respond.

@Cornonthelog Yes, any animal should. But apparently the main reason is they feel they won’t cope with human interaction, which is ridiculous what I said strays always put up rehoming.

@Badcat666 I actually agree with you when it comes to dogs diets, both me and my hard-core vegan friend (open and actually every other week and suspect Italian I know) ) feeds there dogs meet as animals need it, humans dont !

I just have to point out that a "natural" death is not necessarily humane.

Probably wasn't for your friend's dog and most certainly isn't for a research animal if they are going to die in a few months!!

The UK has the strictest laws on animal experimentation in the world.
Lab animals experience far higher standards of care and welfare than the majority of farm animals. They are always given suitable anaesthesia and analgesia for anything likely to cause pain (not the case with farm animals!).

Lab animals are sometimes rehomed, often to the animal technicians who have been caring for them.

Sadly however, many tests require that the animal is euthanised in order that its organs can be analysed, to determine the effects of a drug or treatment. This is the price we pay for developing safe new medicines (for humans and animals).

I get it, I do. The thought of causing suffering to an animal which is normally domesticated is awful. But sometimes it's necessary and having a name doesn't make a dog feel loved.

Lots of dogs that are seized from homes on welfare grounds have seriously nice names. They haven't been well cared for or loved.

In all fairness, names are the least of my concern, although I really dont get why they can't have a list of 1000 that the use in a Constant loop eg Amy1 Charlie12, brad6 etc also w6000 has far more syllables then a normal dog‘s name would have.

My opinion on breeding For pets, is that there should be a legal limit until we control all the homeless dogs we have at the moment! This will tackle this problem.

@everythingthelighttouches trust me, my friends dog had a brilliant End of life, I see this friend round their house at least twice a week. I also personally walked it on the beach (they live a minute away) you would never have seen a happier dog.

@SoftSheen then why don’t we test on animals/humans that already have said disease. I mean if that already going to die from their diseases, surely this would be a bit of a lifeline. Also I’m convinced they get stronger results from this anyway. And then if they die, they could use their organs.

@Lougle exactly, but they are allowed a fresh start.

And any duck for that matter! clearly that is ment to say dog. Although ducks still deserve a good quality life -Although one of the bastards did bite my hand when I was 5!-

I work in a small animal private vet practice and also sit on the welfare and ethics review board of a research institute (that uses mice and rats mostly; no dogs). I have also been asked to be an expert witness in a cruelty (through neglect) case where the animal was a pet dog. My conclusions:

• Many, many pets are seen by us that have gone way, way, way past what would be considered a humane endpoint in an experiment (bigger tumours, more weight loss, worse arthritis etc etc)
• The bar for pet owners is very low. The animal welfare officer showed me photos of other neglect cases while we were waiting outside the courtroom; some of them were horrific but the owners will likely not be banned from keeping animals, or not for long. Any personal licence holder letting their experimental animals suffer like that - dogs, rats, mice, whatever- would have the Home Office Inspector throwing their licence on a bonfire. Ditto establishment licence holders - the breeding stock are subject to welfare rules too, before they enter an experiment.
• For any experimental project licence application to be granted, the application must contain detailed consideration of any aspect of the experiment which may cause mental or physical suffering, with an explanation of how this will be prevented or minimised (eg what anaesthetics and analgesics will be used and the type, dose and frequency of administration); and how any breakthrough pain or suffering would be monitored for, recognised and treated (sometimes we make the researchers stay up all night with their mice in case any of them get into trouble after a procedure, eg the acute lung model experiments). Of course most dog owners want the best for their pets and many are very competent at planning for, monitoring, recognising and treating pain or illness....but by no means all, not by a long chalk.

Bloody hell you're really naive aren't you?

They're not pets. They're bred for a purpose. Does your veganism extend to not accepting drugs that have been tested on animals?

Do you really think that we should trial untested drugs on sick people just because "they were going to die anyway"?! ¿!!