AIBU to feel that the ‘Labour against Private Schools’ campaign is a scapegoat for a lack of vision for educational reform?

[BusyMum1978]

2500 UK independent schools with 615K children attending which is 7% of the population of children in FT education up to the age of 16. A number of articles published this week have highlighted the campaign supported by Labour MP’s, who are calling for a number of measures impacting Independent Schools including their complete abolishment, and for these schools to become part of the state school system. A real hatred seems to be forming, and it feels to me like an easy smoke screen to put up rather than the Labour Party providing very specific policies to show how state funded education will be reformed.

I completely understand the feeling behind the imminent appointment of our 20th Etonian PM - there is urgent reform required in politics to have equal representation which I wholeheartedly agree with. I also understand the recently published stats showing accelerated social mobility for those attending top independent schools. I am not saying that there aren’t areas for improvement- but is the objective to bring more children up, or to bring the independently educated 7% down to make it ‘fair’?

My children both attend a prep school, and they are the first generation in both mine and my husband’s family to do so. We aren’t rich, neither of us have a degree, we own one property. We have -and continue to- work hard and made a choice to invest in our children’s education. We know we are privileged to be able to do so. To hear that MP’s want to wage a ‘class war’ with a family like mine feels inflammatory and yet more decisiveness in an already fractured country.

My children started their education in a state primary school but quite honestly it wasn’t good enough, and our heads were turned by what the private sector had to offer.

It equally broke my heart and inspired me to read The Times article on The Willow in Broadwater Farm school. Schools like this desperately need funding and further support, as do a range of children’s services which were cut during austerity. However will abolishing independent schools help a school like this? Parents who have money will still gravitate to the best areas / schools, and get tutors etc. There are a large number of selective state secondary schools that require heavy tutoring to access.

We need to nurture brilliant young minds in this country, to plug the UK skills gap, and compete in a global market. The independent sector has a valuable role to play.

Progress and globalisation is happening at such a rate that it’s becoming a bit uncomfortable. Many jobs our children will do haven’t even been invented yet.

The independent schools could work more closely with the state sector, but it concerns me that this campaign is chasing an ideal, and if successful would just shift the problem elsewhere.

Er... To the poster way upthread who thinks teachers are unsackable, it's actually the opposite problem. Schools getting rid of experienced staff because they cost too much.

And they are already unfairly responsible for pupils results. How about if students were responsible for their own results?

How about if students were responsible for their own results

Well that’s ridiculous - children cannot be held fully accountable, especially if they come from unstable backgrounds.

ScreamingLadySutch
If teachers rose and fell on the results of their pupils exams, and if secondary schools could pick and choose, education would instantly improve. And the whole point of private schools (who pick and choose and expel their pupils, and rise and fall on their results) would fade away.

Mainly because many parents already believe this

And if you really wanted to revolutionise?
Give parents termly vouchers so that they, not the government, are paying schools. That would really make the teachers trade union hop about and respond!

Its just another excuse to blame the teachers for those with a poor work ethic often supported by parents

Iggly

Well that’s ridiculous - children cannot be held fully accountable, especially if they come from unstable backgrounds.

And the same reason is why teachers shouldn't die on the sword of their pupils' results.

Loads of kids at my sons state comp just piss about all day. They have zero work ethic. The poor teachers try but they are just entitled cocky idiots who love attention. They wouldn't last 5 mins at a good private school.

And the same reason is why teachers shouldn't die on the sword of their pupils' results

I agree. The problem is that managers like things which are “easily” measurable. But the problem is that there are so many factors which impact on a child’s success at school, teachers are only part of that picture.

Fibbke

They wouldn't last 5 mins at a good private school.

No they wouldn't and the only reason why they last at sate schools are because the schools have no power to sanction and are not backed by the parents.

Iggly

I agree and this is why (you haven't said it just to clarify) school cannot be run like businesses.

Yes I agree. Schools are not businesses and should not be run like one.

Not that running an organisation like a private sector business is the panacea anyway!

How do you actually enforce this though? Ban private schools. What if I decide to get together with friends and “home school” with a private tutor will that be banned?

What happens when house prices shoot up even more round outstanding schools (all those private pupil parents will be able to spend more on mortgages)? Will you ban people moving houses? What about very generous donations to ptas - ban that?

Will you ban people sending their kids abroad to independent schools abroad?

What about all the private tutors and activities parents will be able to spend money on - ban that?

What about private healthcare? If we are banning private education/surely healthcare is next.

In our society we are free to spend our income how we choose. Some people have more disposable income. Some choose to spend money on their children’s education - that’s their choice.

Abolishing independent schools won't mean the state get the facilities that the independents own now..they would be sold off or become 'educational centres' for a specialism ..ie science, languages.etc .theoretically for hire to all but realistically only for wealthy families who following their schools abolition decide to 'home ed' in coalition with other parents..and hire the facilities.

Wealthier children in state do better because parents can add to the child's education with enriching activities and experiences.

Not only is it the schools that need looking at but parental responsibility. A child misbehaving at an independent school will be asked to leave...no tribunal....no bleeding heart...parents are responsible for finding another school...
Children at both sectors do well with parental support and high expectations from both parents and teachers. Without such support any child outcomes will be lower.
So smaller classes, high expectations of all children (how many threads are there on here about the same children being chosen instead of all children being given the same opportunities) access to facilities and opportunities and children will achieve..the challenge is how all children can access that. Until we get away from the 'crowd control ' classes in states nothing will change.

Research shows that smaller class sizes don't make a significant difference to outcomes (I'll dig out the reference if anyone wants it - it was a meta review by the Sutton Trust I think). Teacher quality does. However, as a teacher, the quality of my teaching has a lot to do with my marking and behaviour management burden, so small classes do help those problems.

Getting rid of private schools won't work. You will just get the super rich sending their kids to board abroad and the privately-educating middle classes hiring tutors en masse and sending their children to more extra-curricular activities.

The only thing that will solve the problem is ensuring state schools offer the same breadth of education as private schools. But that would mean a wholesale culture change in the state system; it would mean tackling behaviour properly, supporting teachers properly, expanding facilities etc.

And there does not seem to be the political will for that whatsoever.

Phineyj

As a non core subject I have had smaller classes.

15 - 20 pupils.

Some of those classes were a dream, pupils that wanted to learn, had a desire to know more about the subject, were not phased by complex issues, helped each other but most of all wanted to be there.

I have also had classes of the same size. But groups didn't want to be there, every lesson was a trial to keep any sort of pace without attempted side tracks. working independently was a nightmare because they wouldn't do it, and refused to engage all of this backed by the parents.

But here is the point that I want to make

As a teacher I will happily take responsibility for all that is in my control. But I will not take responsibility for those that are not prepared to work, that are backed by parents that even when informed of the issues that their offspring has, how far behind they are and what they need to catch up are happy to blame the teacher.

What if I decide to get together with friends and “home school” with a private tutor will that be banned?
I wouldn’t be surprised and it would be interesting to know on what grounds it would be banned.

What if I decide to get together with friends and “home school” with a private tutor will that be banned?

Well, home schooling is illegal in some parts of Europe, so that wouldn't be impossible.

Interestingly, I once worked in a country where private tuition was illegal.

The result was that parents invited their children's teachers to a lot of regular "dinners" at their homes.

I don't disagree, BoneyBack. I am also non-core and have had classes from 2 to 27 (sixth form). The class of 27 were actually the best. They formed this amazing high performing team and pulled up even the two or three who weren't as motivated. The smaller parallel class fought like cats and dogs and didn't do as well despite better entry grades.

Which country was that, Packing?

I think there is room for state and private schools and I hate that labour are talking about getting rid of them .
I have one ds at private school and his twin sister in a state school purely because each school suited each child . Luckily ds got a significant scholarship . Unfortunately where we live there is actually not much choice with state schools , we have 2 single sex schools , 2 religious schools and 3 state mixed schools along with 3 private single sex schools .
My ds was in a fantastic mixed state school which quite frankly was killing him . My only option was to get him into private school as there was no way we could get into a different state school .

If my son could attend my daughters school he would have been fine . I’d say they both were offered a similar education . Private schools are not always best .

The problem really isn't private or state schools.

It is the political football that education has become.

It is the undermining of the teaching profession

It is the lack of funding.

It is the use of unsuitable inclusion as a battering ram with no support system in place.

it is the removal of existing funding

It is the ever changing form of curriculum with no thought not only to how it should fit together but also bringing in more and more without the previous changes being allowed to settle.

And it is the removal of any real sanctions for persistent poor behaviour including that which would be breaking the law outside of the school.

What angers me most is this is purely a political tactic designed to get people to pick up their pitchforks. There is no data to support that the abolition of private schools would enhance social mobility. There has been bags of research about education being only one small piece and the most important piece is access to free tertiary education. So why aren't they campaigning to do away with fees for university? This detracts from the issue of poorly funded state schools. Getting rid of private schools would ADD to the burden of state schools! And where would that extra funding come from? Not a word about that. Raise my taxes to fund state schools properly. Absolutely. But don't use education as a politics football. They've lost two lifelong labour voters on this one issue in our house.

dapplegrey, it would out me to friends on mn if I said, but it's in Europe.

boneyback, yes. A thousand times yes. I completely agree.

interesting how many countries consider home schooling illegal
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_international_status_and_statistics

Abolishing private schools will not force well heeled parents to even give a shit about the state of a struggling academy in a deprived inner city or rural area. All it will do is increase house prices even more in certain areas, even very small localities, where the schools are seen as desirable.