AIBU to feel that the ‘Labour against Private Schools’ campaign is a scapegoat for a lack of vision for educational reform?

[BusyMum1978]

2500 UK independent schools with 615K children attending which is 7% of the population of children in FT education up to the age of 16. A number of articles published this week have highlighted the campaign supported by Labour MP’s, who are calling for a number of measures impacting Independent Schools including their complete abolishment, and for these schools to become part of the state school system. A real hatred seems to be forming, and it feels to me like an easy smoke screen to put up rather than the Labour Party providing very specific policies to show how state funded education will be reformed.

I completely understand the feeling behind the imminent appointment of our 20th Etonian PM - there is urgent reform required in politics to have equal representation which I wholeheartedly agree with. I also understand the recently published stats showing accelerated social mobility for those attending top independent schools. I am not saying that there aren’t areas for improvement- but is the objective to bring more children up, or to bring the independently educated 7% down to make it ‘fair’?

My children both attend a prep school, and they are the first generation in both mine and my husband’s family to do so. We aren’t rich, neither of us have a degree, we own one property. We have -and continue to- work hard and made a choice to invest in our children’s education. We know we are privileged to be able to do so. To hear that MP’s want to wage a ‘class war’ with a family like mine feels inflammatory and yet more decisiveness in an already fractured country.

My children started their education in a state primary school but quite honestly it wasn’t good enough, and our heads were turned by what the private sector had to offer.

It equally broke my heart and inspired me to read The Times article on The Willow in Broadwater Farm school. Schools like this desperately need funding and further support, as do a range of children’s services which were cut during austerity. However will abolishing independent schools help a school like this? Parents who have money will still gravitate to the best areas / schools, and get tutors etc. There are a large number of selective state secondary schools that require heavy tutoring to access.

We need to nurture brilliant young minds in this country, to plug the UK skills gap, and compete in a global market. The independent sector has a valuable role to play.

Progress and globalisation is happening at such a rate that it’s becoming a bit uncomfortable. Many jobs our children will do haven’t even been invented yet.

The independent schools could work more closely with the state sector, but it concerns me that this campaign is chasing an ideal, and if successful would just shift the problem elsewhere.

Sionnachbeag, we seem to be moving inevorably towards the position that the socio-economic model you seem most comfortable with is not, in fact, socialism, but social democracy - the model employed by the Scandinavian nations...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

...and that which Blair so successfully sold to the British people as his 'Third Way' in 1997 and 2001.

*Moving countries is hard, loss of family ties, friends, esp your kids ones, the UK way of life.

I lived abroad for 3 years, i earned alot of money but moved back, main reason was i missed the weather seasons! and southern hemisphere countries are pretty isolated and have little historical culture.*

I lived in the UK for 30 years before moving to the USA, it was a one way move. We would never go back to the UK. Other than family we miss nothing, and now enjoy proper seasons, history and a culture that we prefer.

We were effectively priced out of the UK

Article on this subject by Tom Utley just published:

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7263333/TOM-UTLEY-shared-Labours-wish-abolish-private-schools.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ico=taboola_feed#readerCommentsCommand-message-field

"As its call-sign @AbolishEton suggests, Laps wants to turn all fee-paying institutions into state schools. To that end, it is circulating a motion for Labour’s conference in September which would commit the party to integrating every fee-paying institution into the state system.

If I understand Laps correctly, it seems to think the principle purpose of schools is not education, as you or I might understand the word, but social engineering. If it’s impossible for everyone’s children to have a Rolls-Royce education, the thinking appears to be, then nobody’s children should have it.

Before we know it, we may have a government committed to the wanton destruction of Britain’s most successful schools, as measured by achievement in any number of fields, from academia and science to sports and the performing arts.
Certainly, the Independent Schools Council has taken the threat seriously enough to write to MPs and Labour councillors in more than two dozen of the areas that would be most affected by the nationalisation of private schools, pointing out the hugely damaging implications for local authority budgets and class sizes.

For example, if Shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir Starmer’s local council had to pick up the bill for educating all 7,800 private school pupils in his constituency of Holborn and St Pancras, it would have to find an extra £52.3 million a year — a whopping 37.3 per cent of its budget. Primary school class sizes would rise to 37 pupils, with ten more in every lesson.

But while these considerations are hugely important, I reckon the most powerful argument for preserving schools such as Eton, Dulwich and my own alma mater, Westminster, is that by almost every criterion, they are simply the best — recognised as such and imitated all over the world.

The way to improve our education system — and thereby to enrich the entire country — is not to abolish the most successful schools but to improve the state sector. "

Social democracy is a form of socialism, the problem is that you ( and anyone else that has this discussion) comes to the debate with an absolutist opinion.

All modern economies employ socialist principles, even the United States, there are no fully capitalist economies.

"The way to improve our education system — and thereby to enrich the entire country — is not to abolish the most successful schools but to improve the state sector. "

Yes, the state sector needs extra funding. The problem is that the same people who agree here that abolishing private schools would not improve social mobility because parents could buy the privileges and advantages for their children any way, also argue that increasing progressive taxation is unfair because the highest earners worked hard and made the right choices.

yes, it wouldn't work anyway and the state would have that eg £52m extra cost a year in some areas. That cost woudl be very high in my outer London area too.

The way to improve our education system — and thereby to enrich the entire country — is not to abolish the most successful schools but to improve the state sector

imho so long as we have a readily available (for the wealthy) private sector, we will never properly fund the state sector.

Private education is highly selective on wealth not ability and thats its fundamental problem, we are just letting down generations of v capable children purely on grounds of how much their parents earn.... tb be honest, its shameful..

the state sector needs extra funding

But it also needs reform and modernisation. The whole system has barely changed from 50 years ago. The subjects are broadly the same, the methods of teaching are broadly the same, The hours and terms are broadly the same. Just throwing money at an antiquated system won't make it world class - it just means money will be spent on teachers doing the same, the same kind of building, the same kind of resources/equipment etc. For all the howls of protest about the never ending reform, the fundamentals have barely changed. The world has moved on in those 50 years, in terms of social aspects, employment aspects, technology, etc. The educational reforms we've had have been similar to re-arranging the deckchairs on the titanic. I'd happily double or treble the spending on education, but I'd want to see pretty major root and branch reforms to make it fit for the modern world.

Totally agree Kazzy its one reason i like Labours life long learning plan, allowing people to go in and out of education as educational needs change is a great idea.

but I'd want to see pretty major root and branch reforms to make it fit for the modern world.

Like what?

The only way to make it fairer for the majority is to improve state school for the majority, through investment. To stop selecting by wealth, in this respect state schools are no different to private. Strangely enough parents aren't fighting for the sink estate school, but the nice leafy church comp.

There is nothing wrong with a private education for the minority, especially those that don't fit mainstream state schools. Or parents who want this for their kids.

Kazzy

You are perfect

I am reading David Mitchell's The Bone Clocks and this quote seems apt:

'“While the wealthy are no more likely to be born stupid than the poor, a wealthy upbringing compounds stupidity while a hardscrabble childhood dilutes it, if only for Darwinian reasons. This is why the elite need a prophylactic barrier of shitty state schools, to prevent the clever kids from the working-class post codes ousting them from the Enclave of Privilege.”

I do think we will never have a fair and equal society where every child has a chance to attain their potential while we persist with an antiquated 2 tier education system.

Like what?

I'd start with a blank sheet of paper and plan out a "perfect new world" system, and then have a 25 year plan to achieve it bit by bit. You need a goal. All this tinkering based on what we've already got is exactly what's causing the pointless reforms/changes which are then reversed following another specialist/consultant report.

@Kazzyhoward that's not an answer though.

What do you think need to be done? What changes are needed?
What are schools lacking now?

The subjects are broadly the same, the methods of teaching are broadly the same, The hours and terms are broadly the same.

The curriculum is more vast and varied.

Teaching methods have changed as well, differentiations 4 ways anyone?

Hours are the same, which is actually causing issues with adding all the extra subjects in the same amount of time.

We had someone in that also went to the school in the '70s. What changed of the top of my head:

French,swimming , ICT
the variety in PE
variety in after school clubs
no girls do x ,boys do y
classrooms are bigger and modernised
access to laptops and tablets
acceptance of SEN and adaptations made for children
the playground is bigger,has a race track,sensory garden,adventure trail,outdoor gym
resources are changed frequently
*a lot of school trips,experiences ,workshops etc
the food is better

College/house system spanning all year groups to improve cohesion and integration.

No automatic "push through" according age so you move onto new subjects and higher levels when you're ready.

Schools open full days starting earlier and finishing later, but teachers/pupils only go in half days, so you can have twice as many pupils and teachers using the same classrooms, labs, resources, etc without actually increasing working hours.

Far more use of modern computer teaching methods, i.e. along the lines of the Open Uni Future learn system where people learn individually online, complete questions etc at the end of each section, have the opportunity to do it again (or required to do it again if scores too low), - no routine teaching required, no marking - ideal for the student who's engaged and willing which gives more time for teachers to deal with the disruptive/disengaged/strugglers, and pupils can work at their own pace so the able can speed along, the stragglers can take more time.

Change subjects taught to be more relevant, i.e. compulsory IT/computing, more real life literacy and numeracy, make English Lit it's own distinct subject and have literacy as it's own separate subject, same with Maths, split it into numeracy and then offer "hard maths" for the more able, such as trig, algebra, etc. Change other subjects into actual skills, i.e. instead of history, geography, etc., have critical thinking, analysis, cause & consequence, etc. For history & geography, have modules, so kids can learn what they're interested in rather than all year group being taught the same.

Is that enough to be going on with?

access to laptops and tablets

Depends what they're used for. If it's just electronic pdf versions of text books then pointless, but if you have proper interactive resources, which mark the work and give reports to the teacher, where you can click on a word you don't understand to get a definition, where you can click to watch an explanatory video, etc then bring it on.

What is needed is far smaller class sizes, allowing more specialist teaching, it is something i ve seen with my brothers children, its not that they are taught different subjects or in some mysterious way but with classes of 10 or 15, individual needs are met in a way that state just cannot do with 30 plus children.

I would also have longer school hours and weekend classes, esp in sport and music.
Primary education starting later say 6 or 7 and more nursery places before then, less or no testing at primary - on going teacher assessment instead.
For less academic children, technical schools from the age of 13 or 14.

We also need to return to making teaching a respected profession instead of Govt seeing them as part of the problem.

The idea that all parents who send their children to independent school because they want to separate them out from the rest of society is laughable. As is the idea that all independent schools are like Eton.

Sick of this communist, Stalinist extreme left wing of labour wanting to take take take from any of us that have worked hard in life. Let alone the utter hypocrisy of these loons. We don’t have half as much money as many people I know who educate in the state sector but have houses and extensions that cost double what it will cost me to educate my children privately (am moving them from state to private in Sept on a bursary I may add). Politics of envy full stop.

Even state schools aren’t equal.

My child attends an excellent state school which we access by being able to afford housing in the right catchment.
Even within that school, some kids have extra advantages. Just in the last year I have spent thousands getting my dd extra help that she needed. Help that we could have in theory gotten for free from the school, but time is precious at this age and we don’t want her languishing on a waiting list or getting help that is anything other than precisely what she needs.

The argument is that if children of the elite are forced into the state system, the state system will be made better. I don’t really believe that. It’s wishful thinking. It certainly won’t get better fast enough for children’s education to not suffer in the meantime. And yes, I know that children are getting poor educations right now. That needs to be fixed. It shouldn’t be fixed by dragging other children into a bad situation.

Loves marties interesting points.

Can't remember which country it was possibly Singapore showing how low taxing of wealthy benefits whole society.

I'm not wealthy and no one in family is, but we do have some break outs who are very not extremely wealthy but in our large family, I have seen in micro the effect of this wealth on all of us.

Actually one is absolutely arrogant arse hole, rude to people, looks down etc shallow and mean HOWEVER.

Even so their wealth has in minor ways benefitted us all. Even though they have been intentionally generous with it.

Purple artichoke couldn't agree more.

Infact I have one dd who is extremely strong academically. I don't feel worried about her in our local comp school which is very good. I've seen her weather storms at primary and she's one of those will do well anywhere types. You simply tell her something and she gets it.

With other dc, she seems bright but doesn't get it and fights it. Conversely I'm actually thinking about tutoring, to get her up to speed but, if she can make it, I think she needs a grammar environment to support her and carry her along. Our very good primary can't deal with her, there's no way I 7 chancing that at secondary.

She'll fall thru the cracks.

To those who say ‘abolish’. I wonder if they live in areas with half decent schools. Or in the inner city where drugs and gangs in schools are common, as were kids skipping off to Syria to murder aid workers. Hmmmmm?

Not quite the same as dealing with the ‘few bad kids’ having a fag behind the science labs.

Politicians have no right to stick their snouts into private schools - sort out problems in state schools. Fix that first.

If the private schools are best then thes ate schools ned to copy those - eg lessons to 5.30pm every day say or homework clubs, teavchers working much longer hours and that kind of thing, easier to sack useless teachers, children not allowed in class if noisy or disruptive, segregation by sex and that kind of thing which works so well in the private sector, rather than experimenting with brand new things on state shcool children.

It is very easy for the left to blame all kinds of things on private schools but most children in those schools are not to different from middle class children in the state sector except they may have less money for tutoring and expensive holidays because parents pay school fees. It is not as straight forward as comparing the worst Sunderland comp with Westminster school

@Oliversmumsarmy

Lots of people don't have holidays and eat beans on choice, not to save up for a house or private school. Fuck off can anyone do it.