AIBU to feel that the ‘Labour against Private Schools’ campaign is a scapegoat for a lack of vision for educational reform?

[BusyMum1978]

2500 UK independent schools with 615K children attending which is 7% of the population of children in FT education up to the age of 16. A number of articles published this week have highlighted the campaign supported by Labour MP’s, who are calling for a number of measures impacting Independent Schools including their complete abolishment, and for these schools to become part of the state school system. A real hatred seems to be forming, and it feels to me like an easy smoke screen to put up rather than the Labour Party providing very specific policies to show how state funded education will be reformed.

I completely understand the feeling behind the imminent appointment of our 20th Etonian PM - there is urgent reform required in politics to have equal representation which I wholeheartedly agree with. I also understand the recently published stats showing accelerated social mobility for those attending top independent schools. I am not saying that there aren’t areas for improvement- but is the objective to bring more children up, or to bring the independently educated 7% down to make it ‘fair’?

My children both attend a prep school, and they are the first generation in both mine and my husband’s family to do so. We aren’t rich, neither of us have a degree, we own one property. We have -and continue to- work hard and made a choice to invest in our children’s education. We know we are privileged to be able to do so. To hear that MP’s want to wage a ‘class war’ with a family like mine feels inflammatory and yet more decisiveness in an already fractured country.

My children started their education in a state primary school but quite honestly it wasn’t good enough, and our heads were turned by what the private sector had to offer.

It equally broke my heart and inspired me to read The Times article on The Willow in Broadwater Farm school. Schools like this desperately need funding and further support, as do a range of children’s services which were cut during austerity. However will abolishing independent schools help a school like this? Parents who have money will still gravitate to the best areas / schools, and get tutors etc. There are a large number of selective state secondary schools that require heavy tutoring to access.

We need to nurture brilliant young minds in this country, to plug the UK skills gap, and compete in a global market. The independent sector has a valuable role to play.

Progress and globalisation is happening at such a rate that it’s becoming a bit uncomfortable. Many jobs our children will do haven’t even been invented yet.

The independent schools could work more closely with the state sector, but it concerns me that this campaign is chasing an ideal, and if successful would just shift the problem elsewhere.

What about abolishing the elephant in the room that is state-school parents paying for tutors?

The 'flood' of children from independent schools would be a 7% increase. Lots of schools are undercapacity with one of two spaces in each class. Its only some areas with not enough spaces. The country could deal with that. Its just like some years are boom years with more births. Our LA had yo increase capacity by a lot more than 7% 5 years ago but the birth rate has dipped again and a lot of schools woukd welcome the extra pupils.

Sorry but this is ridiculous. In London and many parts of the South East there are just not enough schools as it is. I know a lot of people who didn't get any of their choices and are going miles away for a school place. It is already a huge problem without adding 7% extra children into the mix.

7% is a lot when schools are already over capacity, and doesn't take into account other factors like continued high immigration which is also putting pressure on school places, and disproportionately affects London / urban areas.

Its only some areas with not enough spaces

Ok. And what are parents in those areas going to do?

There’s not much more to add @BusyMum1978
It is rubbish to conclude that ditching private schools would disadvantage the poor.

That’s the more ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard in the whole state v private sector debate.

I used to be quite ambivalent about private schools but as I’ve done more reading on this, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s just a terrible element of our unequal society.

We like to believe the notion that if we work hard, we’ll earn enough money to be able to buy a home and maybe even a decent education for our children. To give them a hand up. The reality is not so for the majority.

Most people work hard , but they’re ultimately only lining the pockets of the very rich. Not their own.

Having private schools like Eton does nothing to help address inequality. It just perpetuates elitism.

I wish people would just admit that actually they quite like the idea of exclusivity, of being able to buy something better rather than pretend that it’s helping those who are on the breadline.

Sorry I meant to tag @BusyMum1978
I hate this MN automatic drop down of previous names I’ve tagged!!!

@Wimbledonsemis

Meant to tag you 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

YABU. The Labour party are not there for people with kids at prep school - they are there for ordinary people. Levelling the educational playing field looks like a great plan to me. You just don't lkke the idea that you might lose some priveleges.

Sorry but this is ridiculous. In London and many parts of the South East there are just not enough schools as it is. I know a lot of people who didn't get any of their choices and are going miles away for a school place. It is already a huge problem without adding 7% extra children into the mix

It’s not that many in the grand scheme of things and that’s exactly why the prevalence of privately educated people in certain professions is so appalling.

I don’t genuinely believe that private education would be abolished. But I’d like people to stop with the mind twisting false logic that it somehow benefits the majority.

It does not.

Instead we need to have much better investment in our children as a whole. Let’s spend more money on paying teachers more, on enabling all children to have a more rounded education. Let’s have more of a balanced curriculum.

It needs money, which has been cut in real terms since 2010. We’ve now got children who’ve had their whole education massively underfunded.

In fact the more I think about it, the more I think we need to just turn our back on shouting at the private school system.

Turn back to politicians and ask them how dare they skimp on education.

Levelling the educational playing field looks like a great plan to me

Would that plan include state schools that are selective on faith?

How are you going to prevent the parents who can afford private pushing up house prices in the catchments for the better state schools?

givemesteel - yes some areas there arent enough spaces. It is not beyond the country to set up new schools or increase capacity at existing schools. I live in the urban south east. About 5 years ago school places increaed by 15% in our LA area. My own school by 30%. Now schools are reducing PAN and some schools are worried about their finacial security due to low numbers. A whole new free school was built to serve an area of a town that didnt have a school. This was all to deal with increased birthrates and migration. I just dont see 7% as a big number compared to natural fluctuations from other sources. The government should be held to account for not letting LAs be responsive enough to local need. It doesnt have to be like that.

You know why we sent ours to private school? Because they didn’t get into the outstanding state-funded secondary we can see from our house - because dh and I don’t believe in a magic sky-fairy. Despite the fact that we pay just the same taxes to fund that school as those who do believe in it.

Instead they were given places at the secondary a 45 minute walk away which was in special measures.

As we knew this would be the case, we made sure we had private options as a back-up.

Before you tell me I can’t pay for private school, you’re going to have to tell Christian schools that they can’t reject children whose parents pay exactly the same taxes as everyone else.

That’s great that you can pay for private school.

But most people cannot. So let’s put more money into the state system to make it on a par.

I bet that makes people shudder at the thought. A bit like people thinking social housing shouldn’t be of a decent standard for example.

And I don’t agree with schools selecting on the basis of religion either, like private schools do on the basis of ability to pay. Discriminatory IMO.

It would cause bloody chaos in our County (Gloucestershire). There are at least 8 (probably more) private schools, including a private Sen school. There is already a shortage of state school places and a new secondary school is desperately needed in our town. If the private schools here closed the whole bloody system would collapse. And we have our Grammar schools to add into the mix, the private school pupils would simply be tutored to go there. Oh and the private school parents would also buy houses in the catchment of the one decent comp.Honestly it wouldn’t solve any issues only create more.

So let’s put more money into the state system to make it on a par

Why would it make me shudder? I think that state education absolutely SHOULD be a good standard for all. I also think the application process should be overhauled so you're not gaining access to the better schools by financial selectiveness by stealth.

I meant it makes some people shudder at the thought - missed out a word.

“It is rubbish to conclude that ditching private schools would disadvantage the poor.”

Policymakers and interest groups would need to do analysis on the impacts of different policies, but it’s foreseeable that in some scenarios lower income families could be negatively affected.

Eg parents able to do so often pay big housing premiums to gain entry to popular schools, tutor for selective secondaries, attend church. An increase in the number of families doing this, especially in places where schools are oversubscribed, would impact on places available to other families.

The quay of some of our state schools is absolutely appalling. Every stereotype you can imagine occurs at the one I was offered for my children, no way in hell would they go there. I would have been more than happy with any of the other 5 which we could walk to but I lost on appeal.

Regular occurrences at the school we were offered,

Parents at pick up drinking and smoking at the gates
Children walking to school with parents in PJ's while the children as young as 4 having coke and chocolate or sweets for breakfast while they walk.
Multiple families banned from the school grounds due to fighting in the playground-their children are brought in by taxi provided by the council.
Fuck off you slag is commonly shouted between children of all ages there.

All this still goes on and my eldest is now 10. Taking away the private option would not have made me send my children there. There are plenty of places available in every year if anyone wants to enroll their children tomorrow.

Banning private school won't improve the prospects for these children, they need a massive investment from the government to help entire families through all stages of life, that's the only way to even begin to tackle it.

No idea how quality became quary in my post.

Only if you assume that @Loopytiles private schools would be abolished and everything else remained the same.

Which I very much doubt it would.

Poorer families already are disadvantaged by not being able to afford to move. Saying it would be better if they were not abolished is a fallacy.

The state school where Gove sends his son is in one of the wealthiest areas. They have jo malone candles in classrooms etc. schoolsweek.co.uk/holland-park-school-spent-15k-on-luxury-paint-and-6k-on-posh-candles/. It would be great if schools were funded fairly and it seems that it's only if they have a wealthy demographic of parents that that schools can survive financially. I worked in a school science dept that had no gas for a year because the school couldn't afford to service it. Then they asked why results weren't great when kids couldn't even use a Bunsen

Thorough analysis of policy options would be needed, including on the potential impacts on different groups of the population, and how changes would necessitate changes to other policies and spending.

I don’t get the impression that Labour have done this.

I agree with you. Some people send their kids to private school for social reasons. However, many do so because they have no confidence in state schools. Plus what is wrong with wanting to spend your money on your kids education? If you are lucky to be wealthy isn’t this the best thing you could do for your kids?

The state sector does not equip people for top jobs. It prepares them for mediocrity. It needs total reform. It needs to learn from the private sector not destroy it. Private schools teach kids discipline and also how to play the game when they get out into the world.

Plus you are naive if you think banning private schools will stop inequality. Wealthy parents will still self organise. The state system is already split by wealthy catchments. Schools in such areas have the power to fundraise and make their schools exclusive by virtue of property price. A ‘good’ school is more about wealth of pupils rather than quality of staff. Unless you think of some way of radically overhauling this there won’t be equality.

Sorry but to genuinely claim that those who are less well off would be disadvantaged is claptrap. They’re not benefiting now.....

Anyway, let’s just put more money into the state education system.