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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think spreading the myth that marriage is just a piece of paper is irresponsible?

218 replies

Lagobel · 12/07/2019 16:21

I've never heard anyone say, "Driving lessons are a waste of money, a driving license is just a piece of paper." I've never heard anyone say, "Studying is a waste of time, exam results are just a piece of paper." I've never heard anyone say, "I'm just going to keep renting, a mortgage is just a piece of paper." Yet almost every time the differences between marriage and cohabitation is brought up, the "piece of paper" line gets trotted out.

Why do so many people fall for it? It's so obvious that it's just a line that people (mostly men) sell their partner when they don't want to share their assets with them! "We don't need a piece of paper to prove our love" is just a way of making "I don't want to marry you" sound romantic.

Even more frustrating is when they refer to it as a "very expensive piece of paper". It doesn't have to be! A couple who get married in a register office in front of two witnesses during their lunch break are no less married than a couple who have a white wedding at a castle. The legal document is the same either way. I don't understand how people aren't aware of this – even if they don't know anyone in real life who had a £100 wedding, surely they've seen it on TV? Elopements are quite a common sitcom trope.

Before anyone says, "Just because someone isn't married to their partner it doesn't mean they don't understand the legal side of things – I don't want to get married because I'm the higher earner/I don't meet the inheritance tax threshold/I don't care whether or not I get bereavement allowance" – I'm not criticising that decision at all. There are definitely good reasons why someone may not want to get married, especially if they have children from a previous relationship and want to protect their inheritance. But in those cases, people are choosing not to marry BECAUSE they know it's not just a piece of paper. They're aware of the legal implications, and they've made an informed decision.

I'm frustrated by this because I have a friend who's upset that her son's father has just told her he doesn't want to get engaged in the next five years (and he wants the subsequent engagement to last at least two years). They're in their thirties and she's a SAHM. The rest of our friendship group is telling her that she's being silly, of course he's committed to her, marriage is unnecessary nowadays, a piece of paper and a ring won't change their relationship. I don't want to be a downer, but it annoys me that they're giving her a false sense of security, yet if I say anything I'll probably get shit for being the one to tell her what she doesn't want to hear.

OP posts:
C0rnfl0wer · 13/07/2019 09:51

So you want society to go back to stigmatising unmarried mothers and children out of wedlock.Hmm

HorridHenrysNits · 13/07/2019 09:55

Yes I'm not sure that's a particularly brilliant idea either.

The difficulty is in finding a middle way. Make it clear that having a baby with someone you haven't known very long is a big risk and statistically unlikely to result in a lasting relationship between the couple, whilst also not stigmatising and punishing those women and children who do end up in that situation. And it would be the women and children not the men, let's be honest. Always is.

BertrandRussell · 13/07/2019 09:55

“You’re right, not being married doesn’t equal that but being married before children does often mean you’ve thought about it a bit more.”

I really, really disagree with this statement.

Missushb · 13/07/2019 09:56

Regarding the requirement to re-register the children born before marriage, is that the case in Scotland too?

HorridHenrysNits · 13/07/2019 10:01

If you look at married couples and unmarried couples conceiving as cohorts, yes you're going to find the married ones have thought about it more, because the unmarried group will include one night stands, very casual relationships. So it builds in the group of people who have thought least about their future relationship/dont have one. I just don't think that particularly tells us anything helpful.

BertrandRussell · 13/07/2019 10:08

Yes- the tendency to lump all unmarried parents together is very misleading. And a very useful political soundbite.

Oliversmumsarmy · 13/07/2019 10:22

Marriage is far more than a piece of paper

I agree.

It is a yoke round your neck

I have watched too many people divorce and the only ones that come out of it with any money are the lawyers.

Just because you have a child without being married doesn’t mean you have only just met someone.

Some of us have been in a relationship that have outlasted all of the marriages we attended in our 20s and 30s.

Oliversmumsarmy · 13/07/2019 10:31

Seven out of 10 offenders come from broken homes, he said, adding that single parent families were more than twice as likely to live in poverty than those living with both parents

This would take into account those that did get married and supposedly thought about the future then divorced.

Just because you get married doesn’t mean it will stay that way

InTheHeatofLisbon · 13/07/2019 10:34

Aye because nobody married ever had a one night stand or cheated eh?

What self congratulatory smug bullshit.

My kids are no less planned because DP and I aren't married. DS1 was unplanned, I was married.

It's ridiculous attitudes like this which cause the arguments.

You're not better because you're married, you're also not guaranteed that you'll stay married.

Smug and wrong.

By all means marry, but don't cast aspersions on people who make a sensible and well thought through decision not to. That just makes you look a bit stupid and sad really.

meow1989 · 13/07/2019 10:49

The examples you have in the op dont really apply though; a driving license allows you to drive, a mortgage gives you assets (whereas marriage doesnt necessarily depending on circumstances).

However I agree in general, although I always placed commitments such as the house and our son as more binding than marriage, though we are married and I am glad, I would marry my husband a hundred times over, but I'm not actually sure I can justify why it seems important.

I absolutely agree from a legal point of view that its protection and recognition, but it's more than that isnt it? I also think theres a level of social pressure as a relationship seems to be more highly regarded or respected by others if the couple are married.

Lllot5 · 13/07/2019 10:51

I think get married if you want to or don’t if you don’t want to. But make sure it’s an informed decision, with regards to legal positions and rights should you split.
Too many people carry on regardless because of the it’s only a bit of paper myth.

TheRedBarrows · 13/07/2019 11:12

People need accurate knowledge and to use it to support their own circumstances.

Would I be a SAHM or low-earning partner, with children, contributing money towards a house or savings that my name was not on? No way.

As a woman with my own career, substantial equity and pension, and children, would I marry a man with no equity, children, etc and give him rights over my property? No way.

We have done everything 50/50. Equal parenting and childcare responsibility, both reduced our contracts to do equal days st home, fair and shared input into home ownership.

Oliversmumsarmy · 13/07/2019 11:18

I also think theres a level of social pressure as a relationship seems to be more highly regarded or respected by others if the couple are married

Most people I think would be surprised we aren’t married.
Never had a conversation with anyone about “our” marriage.

I have always been the low earning SAHM partner.

My name is on everything. Just because I don’t earn doesn’t mean I can’t own.

meow1989 · 13/07/2019 11:24

@oliversmumsarmy I don't know if you took my comment as positive or negative (and I'm not being snarky by replying, I'm just elaborating) but I dont agree with people taking a married couple "more seriously", just an observation that it seems to be the way

AnxietyDream · 13/07/2019 11:28

Why should everyone get their choice taken away from them just because some people don't make themselves aware of their rights?

Absolutely agree with this. I cohabitated long term with someone I didn't want to marry. I am now married. My choice.

People who choose not to get married but basically want the commitments and benefits of marriage forced on everyone who lives together long term really annoy me.

Get married or not, your choice. But don't try to force me into a contract I don't want!

Oliversmumsarmy · 13/07/2019 11:32

meow1989 I was just trying to say how anyone would actually know you were married or not to treat you any differently

ForalltheSaints · 13/07/2019 11:37

Agree with the OP. Not just about it being a commitment, but that if something happens to one of you, the law treats you in a different (I would say better) way if you are married. The same in time will apply to civil partnerships.

meow1989 · 13/07/2019 11:37

In my experience, I know amongst friends and acquaintances who is married or who is not depending o how they refer to their partners. Although to be fair, I have a young ds and have referred to DH as "his dad" and have wondered whether people assume I am a single parent based on that.

Oliversmumsarmy · 13/07/2019 12:08

I refer to my oh by his name or dcs dad. Do people refer to their partner as their husband.

BertrandRussell · 13/07/2019 12:14

If I have to I refer to dh as my partner. But I don’t have to do it very often. Why would I cam him my husband? He isn’t.

babbi · 13/07/2019 12:44

Just a point re wills that many people are unaware of ....
More than 65% of wills in England and Wales were not executed exactly as per the deceased’s instructions ( statistics last 10 years )
When an executor makes variations in this way the path of recourse is very complicated and expensive.
Variations are not necessarily classed as illegal and fraudulent... they are carrying out “wishes “... legal battles in these situations run into hefty bills ..
Protection in these cases is given by the marital law re succession and inheritance being clearly legally defined ( even more clarity in Scotland) ...
So marriage does offer more protection even after death ...

To those unmarried... a will can be changed at any time and you may not know ... or it may not be distributed as expected ...

It really is food for thought ...., I was astonished at how often people got away with distribution of assets as they saw fit rather than respecting the deceased'swidhes ... and how subsequently the legal team would not always put it right but they themselves would determine what they deemed a fairer split ....

BrassicaBabe · 13/07/2019 13:09

One of the most well balanced and reasonable threads I've read on here for an age SmileSmile

meow1989 · 13/07/2019 13:37

As in, I refer to my husband as my husband. I said partner to encompass all relationships. So if I say husband, people know I'm married, if someone says partner? Boyfriend, girlfriend, I would assume that they're not and that's how people know if someone is married or not and that's where the perceived judgement comment comes in

bingbongnoise · 13/07/2019 14:30
Hmm
bingbongnoise · 13/07/2019 14:30

I am genuinely worried about the (few) women on here who are trying to justify being in a long term relationship and never getting married - even when they have kids together/buy a house together...

'Oh WE have been together 20 years and never married, and seen loads of people marry and split up all around us while weeeeee stayed together!'

Yep, but you still have fuck-all protection, and these women do/did have ..

It's also a well documented fact that in relationships where the couple are married, the relationship will be more likely to last than those who just co-exist, (and have no more rights than if they were flatmates.)

Come down off your high horse(s) and quit having a go at people who are just trying to help, by calling them 'smug marrieds' and all that jazz.

Open your eyes FGS! Of COURSE you are better off/more secure when you're married, and it is NOT 'just a piece of paper...' It's utterly foolhardy to say otherwise.