To kind of agree with Boris about tax?

[taxwtf]

I've never voted Tory in my life and can't stand the man. I'll never vote for him/them. His plans won't work because he's spouting crap and nothing adds up and Brexit will make us all poorer.

But...

Earlier this week someone I line manage asked me to check their payslip as they'd had a couple of extra payments and sick pay and weren't sure it was all correct. This person works 50% of the hours I do and is several points below me on our pay scale. I am a manager with a lot of responsibility and they are not. I now know that they take home about half what I do for working half the hours AND having waaay less responsibility/tasks etc.

I obviously don't begrudge this individual a single penny. The reason for this disparity is tax. The last few pay rises I got were barely noticeable in reality once tax, NI and pension contributions had gone up. If this person ever goes full-time their pay obviously won't double, but will not be as far behind mine as they might imagine.

WTF is the point of all the extra I do? As a single parent I also lose out so I strongly believe household income should be looked at instead of me subsidising married couples as is the case now. I wish I'd never seen that payslip, but although Boris's 'plans' obviously won't work, AIBU to think the tax system needs a massive overhaul and people like me in decent jobs, high end of our careers but absolutely NOT on silly money, should be better off?

So a single mother earning 50k a year would take home 3.5 k less than a couple earning the same amount (25k each). How is it fair?

Because in the single mother situation the money is supporting one adult and (let's say) one child.

In the married couple's situation the money is supporting two adults and one child.

If we actually stopped this as some of you are suggesting surely it would be unfair the other way around?

How about a single mother who’s supporting 2 or 3 children in comparison with a couple without any children?
I know plenty of examples.

But if you pay less tax (and I fully understand why you, as an individual looking at your pay packet, would want that), then something else would have to give. Usually public services or health. Where I live we have no state income tax, only federal income tax, so I pay a lot less as a percentage of my income in taxation than I ever did in the UK (doing the same job). But we have no NHS, no child benefit, no JSA, we have to buy all our own school supplies (including cleaning products), no state pensions unless you worked many years of your life (or you are married to someone who did), no disability if you have never worked. In our town we have to pay $48 a month to the ambulances whether we have ever used them or not. We have toll roads. We pay little tax but we get little back. That’s the alternative option.

I'm surprised so many people broadly agree with me- I thought I was going to be slaughtered.

I never thought I would consider cutting tax as something I would come close to agreeing with, but it is very demoralising to know that in my early 40s this is as good as it gets as I'm unlikely to get a promotion worth more than about 5k and that would cost me in CB so I doubt it would be worth having. I sometimes have the scope to earn a bit extra and it gets wiped straight out.

It seems people lump people like incomes like mine in with the super rich, which is utterly ridiculous.

As for married people having to support two adults instead of one, it really doesn't make that much difference as you pay supplements on things like holidays and when you have two teenage boys it really is no comfort....

I kind of agree - I’m a single parent earning close to the higher tax threshold. It’s a screwed system that really penalises mid earners,

imsuchagrump

I think the op is annoyed because the person who does not only 1/2 the hours she does and takes home 1/2 the pay is doing a lesser job.

The equivalent of a f/t Office manager who is earning £4000 per month for 40+ hours per week with all the stress, qualifications and extra effort they have to put in but the office junior does dead on 20 hours per week, out of the door at 5pm with no stress or extra qualifications etc is coming out with £2,000

Dd works for a company usually 2-3 times per week in a customer service type role.They have asked and asked for her to go and work for them in their HO in a ft role.

Because she is self employed and would be going to PAYE with no tax rebate for travel etc she would come out with the same money for doing 5 days as opposed to 2-3 days

Usually promotions that involve longer working hours are just not worth it by the time you add up the hours you need to work

Bear mind that employment taxes are not the only taxes. We all pay a lot of VAT and there's no allowance on that, so it'll make up a higher proportion of those lower earners' expenditure. Overall our tax system is said to be only slightly progressive (progressive = you pay more tax as a percentage as you earn more).

Regarding the single parents. The unfair thing isn't so much marginal taxation as that it's too easy for one of the adults to opt out of contributing. Getting annoyed with lower earners' personal allowances is the wrong target although you certainly should weigh up whether promotions are worth it financially and emotionally.

So a single mother earning 50k a year would take home 3.5 k less than a couple earning the same amount (25k each). How is it fair
I agree, however this is not a question of single people subsidising married people, because the inequality is there for couples as well. The couple earning £25 each is better off than the one with a SAHP and one earning £50, or even two working adults but £40+£10 instead of £25+£25.

I was quite amazed when it was announced that from April, the 40% tax bracket would increase as well as the personal allowance. I'd worked out I'd be better off by about £50 a month, so was bemused when I found myself actually worse off...

....oh yes, they forgot to mention that NI contribution would increase accordingly....

This is why I just hate politics and can't stand any of them, they just say what people want to hear and keep the rest quiet hoping no-one will notice!

oh yes, they forgot to mention that NI contribution would increase accordingly....

Eh? The NI threshold rose in April as well.

I agree with you OP, but I suspect its an issue that those who work full or near full time have a very different viewpoint from those who don't. But how else is the ordinary person supposed to improve their lot in life other than through income earned from a job? We can't all be born to parents who leave or gift us money.

Higher rate tax has got out of control. It was never designed to tax ordinary working people at half their income (including national insurance). It now feels like a punishment for promotion or doing extra hours.

Added to that, salaries have stagnated. There seems to be a disrespect for people with qualifications in professional jobs in particular, theres not enough incentive to work hard, qualify and then continue full time in stressful, difficult jobs.

My DH is a degree qualified engineer, in a supposed area of great skills shortage. He's reasonably well paid at 52k pa, but 10 years ago, he was on 45k. How does he improve his standard of living? He can't get any more qualifications, he has all that is needed. His skills are excellent and are in high demand. Its just that all the jobs here (Scotland) pay much the same.

His daily work commute is hellish - an hour and a quarter on traffic clogged roads. No public transport is available, or at least the public transport version would take him 3 1/2 hours one way! We looked into buying a small flat in Edinburgh, but because it would be classified as a second home, the extra 4% stamp duty makes it prohibitively expensive.

We are both considering relocating to another European country, hopefully it will still be allowed after Brexit as we feel here that the government just stifles any attempts you make to improve your standard of living through work at all ends.

@taxwtf you only lose all child benefit once you hit £60k taxable pay - ie after deductions like pension, childcare vouchers etc. Many people are earning significantly over £60k and still getting CB. Given that's around twice the national average income I don't think thats too bad actually.

Personally I quite like schools, hospitals, libraries etc so no I don't support a change to tax bands, unless its to further increase the personal allowance and pull more people at the lower end out of paying tax all together. Merging tax and NI to simplify things would be a good move though. All the different rates and levels is quite confusing.

Britwifeinusa But if you pay less tax (and I fully understand why you, as an individual looking at your pay packet, would want that), then something else would have to give. Usually public services or health. Where I live we have no state income tax, only federal income tax, so I pay a lot less as a percentage of my income in taxation than I ever did in the UK (doing the same job). But we have no NHS, no child benefit, no JSA, we have to buy all our own school supplies (including cleaning products), no state pensions unless you worked many years of your life (or you are married to someone who did), no disability if you have never worked. In our town we have to pay $48 a month to the ambulances whether we have ever used them or not. We have toll roads. We pay little tax but we get little back. That’s the alternative option.

But we don't actually get that much for our tax here. I used to live in The Netherlands, and overall you pay slightly more tax there, but you get much, more in return for it. Particularly a transport system that actually works, gets you to your work quickly and when compared to Britain, is relatively inexpensive.

Theres not even footpaths to walk on here! There used to be a footpath along the main road which leads to our house, but it hasn't been maintained for years and the overgrown grass verge (which is no longer cut) has grown over it so it has gone. If you walk anywhere, you have to walk on a busy road...tried to get the council to reinstate it and they don't even respond.

Pensions here are the lowest in Europe. The NHS is hit and miss - I've sometimes paid to go private, including using a private GP on occasion. Waiting lists for people who can't afford to go private are appalling. Public transport is dire and expensive, where it exists. Roads are dreadful (I live between two big cities and there isn't even a dual carriageway the whole way in either direction; I often get stuck behind farm tractors at 20mph). Get no benefits or tax credits and never have done - my government has never given me money for anything). Tolls on roads are being seriously discussed. Business rates are extortionate. Undergraduate education is prohibitively expensive (its free in The Netherlands for undergraduates and £2000 a year for a Masters). On top of all that, if we try to earn more money, we are punished by having to lose half of it in tax. Private education is hardly unusual here.

I fail to see what paying really rather high levels of tax actually gives me in return. Things like footpaths would really be useful to me and improve my quality of life! Thats how bad it is.

We were discussing this with a German friend, we all currently live in the US. They were saying that they have so much more disposable income in the US and a much higher standard of living due to lower taxes.
This is true, but the system only works while you do work and providing you don't get really sick. Your state schooling is dependent on your local taxes which can be many thousands in good school districts, so you have to move to a cheaper area with worse schooling if you can't afford the taxes. Your healthcare is also dependent on the insurance your job provides usually.
In addition their are issues of crime and security in a very unequal society. 40% of young black men don't work or study in my city. They need to earn money somehow.
There is also the long term societal damage of not having a country which is a meritocracy, where the best people do the best jobs.
If you don't pay for decent education for all you just get those with wealth looking after their own and they may not actually be the best placed to run the country, its companies and institutions.

In a the long run everyone is impacted by living a society based on low tax even if it seems beneficial to those near the top in the short term.

LOLLLLL! OP, welcome to the progressive tax system!

I've always been an advocate of flat tax rate.