To feel conflicted in my feminism?

[Sparkles57]

This is not meant to be a GF thread just to clarify.....

All my life I’ve liked to think of myself as a staunch feminist, defender of women’s spaces etc.

I’ve also been a part of the LGBT community for nearing 10 years now and I like to think I’m a big believer of everyone being included, no prejudice etc.

The current climate has got me so confused, I feel as if there is no middle ground between acceptance and feminism and I’m really struggling to make sense of it. On the one hand I don’t want anyone to feel ostracised or like they can’t be themselves but equally I don’t want women’s rights to take a back seat!

Am I the only one that feels like this? And how do I reconcile the feeling of wanting to be accepting with defending my rights as a woman?

Sorry, wanting to be accepting of who or what?

Accepting of everyone, no matter what their race, religion, sexuality etc

There have always been conflicting rights. Open, free dialogue is needed to accommodate these and isn't currently happening.

Am I the only one that feels like this?

No

And how do I reconcile the feeling of wanting to be accepting with defending my rights as a woman?

I'm not sure you can.

I deal with it by trying to avoid situations that are going to make me feel particularly conflicted and by trying to support people only in ways I feel comfortable with. I do call out my friends on sexism regardless of their gender identity, though.

You're certainly not alone. It is difficult.

If you didn't already see it, it would be worthwhile watching the documentary that was on BBC1 tonight, 'The Trans Women Athlete Dispute'. Martina Navratilova was speaking and interviewing. It was extremely insightful.

I can relate. Now personally, I couldn't give a monkeys about who is occupying the adjacent cubicle. But I know plenty of women do and with damn good reason. Their rights must be upheld, nobody should feel uncomfortable or unsafe in public spaces.
(Obviously, the debate is about much more than public toilets, I'm just using it as an example)

I don't even mind the term 'cis'. Saying 'Karen is a trans woman, Gibbo is a normal woman' just implies that Karen is odd, strange, not normal. In that context, I'm fine about being called cis. But I also understand why millions of women are not OK about this. Again, that preference must be heard and acted upon.

I cannot see an immediate solution. All I can really do is continue to challenge outright prejudice/hate over sex/gender, try my best to be sensitive towards individual preferences and ensure the media I consume and share on this topic is both factual and non-biased. Everybody deserves a safe space but how the hell we give it to them is beyond me.

On what planet do Male people need women's SEX based rights? They are not female. They have the same rights as every other Male already.

My feminism centres human females. That's the point. Otherwise it would be called something else.

Acceptance is great but we are being forced to accept things that are bullshit just for the sake of being "inclusive"

I don't even mind the term 'cis'. Saying 'Karen is a trans woman, Gibbo is a normal woman' just implies that Karen is odd, strange, not normal

No, says Karen is a trans woman is a statement of fact. Saying AbGonk is a woman is a statement of fact. No need for cis.

I'm with you.
I hate the current climate of trans bashing and debate. But I want women to have their hard won safe spaces (and sports...the documentary tonight was interesting) and I don't want to dismiss anyone's rights to be who they feel they are.
But I'm not a cis woman. I'm a woman, and passionate about the fight we have had to have the acceptance and rights in society that have been fought for for a bloody long time.
No easy answers. But I think in time, it will settle. My DD1 is a happily married lesbian and life is easier for her now than it could have been 50 years ago. I have hope that all the angst now will clear itself up without women becoming the minor sex again.

But my basic response is still 'if you have a willy don't come in my women only spaces' not politically correct , but my gut feeling!

I think there is always a way to be all inclusive. For example the toilets and changing room debate. They don't have to be merged, we can have male, female and other - take your pick. We have gender neutral toilets on our floor at work, and honestly they're vile. Now I don't bash men but sorrrry they can be gross. The ladies a floor down is immaculate, no wee all over the seats. I got a sheepish look today as a bloke came out as I went in, surprise, I pissed on every surface, cheers pal 😂 Just why?! So no I don't want to share because unfortunately they're not always respectful. And I'm not arsed to be honest about sharing changing rooms with a door, not curtain. But young girls changing alongside any Tom Dick and Harry from 27 to 72 doesn't sit right either. Again, male female then some aside for others who don't want to pick either, there wouldn't even have to be a great deal because the majority feel fine picking m or f. Blown way out of proportion

When demands or 'rights' collide, you have to get analytical and logical.

I can understand. I’ve never considered myself a staunch feminist, and have loads of gay and drag queen friends.

I have always really felt for trans individuals and mainly had so much respect for their strength and bravery for being themselves in a world of expected gender conformity.

However when I heard about changes to GRA & saw uproar on here (which I didn’t really know about until Oct) and subsequently started actually digging around as to what is happening now & what this means for women (I don’t even count myself as being affected so much - I live rurally, work from home, swim only in a friend’s pool, rarely use public loos & exercise outside & not in a gym) however... i have sisters and family with young girls and I have been raped several times in my life and whilst I myself have almost a two-tier mental categorisation (genuine dysphoria & trying in every way to emulate the stereotype of a woman every day V a straight man Shania twaining “I feel like a women” complete with beard, and decided on a daily whim) in terms of what I’m comfortable around in female spaces (open to the former and not so much (while still absolutely respecting their right to self expression and personal identity) of the latter), I fully support that women should be the ones deciding if this is okay.

I personally def don’t want safe female spaces to be a self-id-ing free for all with anyone not (esp anyone really vulnerable ie a dv or rape survivor) happily partaking in a cognitively dissonant validation exercise to be suddenly the “wrong” and penalised ones. (Such as rape victims being thrown out of some shelters if they express upset at having a pre-op male sleeping next to them)

It’s so unfair to expect women to unquestionably accept this with “no debate” and it’s not okay. There needs to be a debate.

Inclusivity does not mean that those who the “inclusion” hitherto pertained (such as biological females) become excluded within their own definition. That isn’t inclusion; that’s changing a fundamental definition that is deeply intrinsic biological reality with all the various social experiences that result from this physical reality.

Expecting people to either ignore physical reality or be deemed a bigot is monumental social event. It’s just shocking.

I’ve always been jokingly referred to as a gay man in a women’s body by mates and have momentarily navel gazed around this before realising that make me pretty lucky 😂 but I would prob say I’m non binary if I had to define myself. However, I’m still an adult human female. 🤷🏽‍♀️

And intersex individuals with medical conditions affecting only males or females, (there is no 3rd sex category & to imply there is is offensive for obvious reasons ie implying they’re not really a proper “male” or a “female”) has zero to do with personal identity so please leave them out of this.

Yanbu.

I cannot see an immediate solution. All I can really do is continue to challenge outright prejudice/hate over sex/gender, try my best to be sensitive towards individual preferences and ensure the media I consume and share on this topic is both factual and non-biased. Everybody deserves a safe space but how the hell we give it to them is beyond me

This. Trying to protect women's safe spaces whilst supporting LGBT rights is very hard.

Being compassionate, kind and to keep listening to both sides is key for me right now.

I feel this deeply. I'd consider myself extremely accepting and non-judgemental and I can't even begin to imagine the trauma that transfolk have had to go through. However, at the same time insisting that you can have a penis and be as much of a woman as everyone else feels just wrong. I recently left an online group because everyone was slagging off the pussy hats for being exclusionary because not all vulvas are pink, and not all women have vulvas. I hate the thought that maybe I'm a TERF but I really don't think I am.

While there are clearly only two biological sexes, I think some of the issues come from trying to force everyone who identifies as a woman into the biological female box. A trans woman is not the same as a cis woman (I'm using that term to be absolutely crystal clear, I know it bothers some so apologies). A trans woman has not experienced the same path as a cis woman, or faced the same prejudices, experiences and bodily changes through puberty and into adulthood. Similarly, a cis woman can never really have a true idea about the bullying, hate and lack of self identity that many trans women have to endure. We can stand together against prejudice but we're not the same, and I think trying to make us all fit into the same box is where the issue lies.

you have to get analytical and logical.

We're screwed

I am straight, have a son, so based on this, the trans debate would not affect me personally.

However, I have been raped, sexually abused and emotionally abused ( 3 different relationships, its how I classify) And there is no way I would of been in a good place to talk to a man because they were claiming to be a woman and that is my issue.

My God daughter is an amazing athelete but chances are she could be forced out of the sport if she wants to take it further.

My partner's aunt's ex (both women) is single and she now is refusing to date for the simple reason she is gay and doesn't want a dick.

None of this really impacts my life but it is only time till it will and I will fight now, to try and make sure my rights as a woman are not removed.

I am not a cis woman, I am woman

If being a feminist means I must blindly accept and agree that a person born a male can declare themselves a woman, I guess I'm not a feminist.

OP, I think you will find that this is mainly a mumsnet issue. Offline, the majority of feminists are able to be accepting of trans/non binary people with absolutely no issue.

OP, I think you will find that this is mainly a mumsnet issue. Offline, the majority of feminists are able to be accepting of trans/non binary people with absolutely no issue.

A survey done by Pink News found that only 18% of the general public support Self ID - and only 13% of Tory voters.

And that's the general public. I think you'll find that the percentage among feminists is lower. That's because feminists prioritize the interests of females. The clue is in the name.

If your feminism focuses on the male born it isn't feminism in any structured or intellectual way. It's just the content free libfem idea that anything from man pleasing to lap dancing to having Botox is a feminist statement because a woman chooses to do it.

On the one hand I don’t want anyone to feel ostracised or like they can’t be themselves but equally I don’t want women’s rights to take a back seat!

I think you'll find this is where the majority of regular posters on the Feminism board stand.

No one wants transgender people to be harassed or attacked. No one hates transgender people. We get tired of pointing out that we're not anti trans, we're pro women's rights.

Thing is, my endorsement of everyone's right to self expression stops at the point where this severely impacts another group's rights. And gender ideology damages the interests of women and girls in a lot of different ways.

I have no problem whatsoever with a transsexual like the delightful Miranda Yardley, who uses men's facilities and acknowledges his sex along with his gender identity. I do have a problem with men who identify as women using an open plan women's changing room, for example, or providing intimate care when a female carer has been requested.

Single sex facilities are vital for women's safety, dignity and privacy. They are crucial for many women to be able to participate in public life. Males, however they may identify, have no place in them.

Radical feminists have always been very much in support of LGB rights. Most of us are left wing and many are lesbian. Why would we suddenly become bigots? We are accused of being "trans exclusionary" which demonstrates the sexism intrinsic to the movement. We include FtMs because they're female. Of course we do. But what matters is that we don't include MtFs - because at all points men are still far more important than women.

You might find it's worth considering the very different public profile of MtFs compared to FtMs. We don't hear anything about FtMs pestering gay men for sex. We don't hear about FtM prisoners lobbying to be moved to the men's estate and sexually assaulting male prisoners when they get there. We don't hear of FtMs competing against men in elite sports.

This is because FtMs are born female, have female bodies and have experienced female socialization growing up, whereas MtFs often behave in stereotypically masculine ways - the
Cotton Ceiling is a powerful example.

There were trans people on Twitter last night saying they were going to make a complaint to the BBC about the Martina programme BEFORE it had been shown and despite the fact they weren't going to watch it.

There were some trans women tweeting assorted statements who were watching it and refused to see that actually, on the whole, it was a pretty balanced programme. I saw one trans woman posting statements that were ridiculously inflammatory and some other people questioned those statements - in perfectly valid and polite ways, for the most part. The trans woman just replied to all of them "stop trolling random trans women, top tip for you". I bit and said "You post a tweet to the wider public, people respond and you won't engage, just accuse them of trolling. Don't you think that's part of the problem? A lack of willingness to engage and actually discuss?"

I got the same trolling accusation and blocked.

Apparently any one who other view than their own is the enemy.

Now personally, I couldn't give a monkeys about who is occupying the adjacent cubicle

It's not about you giving a monkey's, it is about the assessment of risk.

Sex segregated spaces are segregated due to increased risk of male behaviour towards females.

The risk doesn't suddenly reduce because a man says words that happen to be 'i am a woman''. Or because he chooses to walk into a female toilet not a male toilet.

You not caring doesn't reduce your risk. You not caring and publicising that you don't care, is actually increasing the risk for every female in those facilities.

It's basically: men get do to what men want to do. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

OP, I think you will find that this is mainly a mumsnet issue. Offline, the majority of feminists are able to be accepting of trans/non binary people with absolutely no issue.

You see this is not because there is some weird conspiracy here on mums net, it is because we are engaging with the issue and informing ourselves.

When other women do this, they too will support the stance that feminism is for women who were born women, trans activism is for trans people. It really is that simple. There is no intersectionality, feminism is about the rights of females, end of.

The actual reality of what is being demanded by a specific cadre of trans activists who are self-declaring themselves as spokespeople for the whole trans community at large is utterly batshit.

So batshit that when everyday people hear the demands, they don't believe them, and dismiss it as hyperbole.

Unregulated drugs for children
Release of all trans prisoners
Free surgery on demand
etc

So when the people here point this out, those activists don't like the fact we're shining a light on these types of things and they start screaming to shut us up and make people look the other way. You have to wonder why they aren't willing to sit down and discuss it normally.

But in any case, the word "woman" is taken. We all know what it means and who it applies to. Men cannot have it.
Women's facilities/opportunities/services/sports are similarly "taken". We built them for us. TW can build their own too.