Plant based diets- can they be sustained without causing harm to animals?

[Snowy81]

This is not meat eater, versus vegetarian versus vegan argument, this is a question I would just like to know the answer too, because I’m struggling with it, and there is probably a simple answer I’ve over looked.

Many are saying to stop eating meat, and follow a plant based diet.

However I’ve just been watching a documentary (with Mr A), who says that many animals are losing their natural habitat, due to humans using the land to grow crops.

So surely if we (everyone) eat more plant based foods, we will need more land to grow it, therefore taking it away form animals? I should say this was spoken about regarding America, but surely that applied everywhere?

So how will this plant based diet, be beneficial to animals if we need their land to grow it? Isn’t that just as detrimental as us breeding animals for human consumption?

A lot of the crops grown are for animal feed/a lot of the land cleared is used to farm animals on. So if fewer people eat meat, fewer animals will have to be farmed, so less land will be cleared for crops to feed them or to farm them on.

If there were no more cow/sheep/pig farming, that land could be used I guess? I dont think a significant proportion of the population will stio eating meat in our lifetime though.

Land used for sheep farming e.g. Welsh mountains, Yorkshire Moors is not suitable for growing crops.

Palm oil would still need to be addressed, rainforests being cleared for the palm oil industry is impacting on species like orang-utans. Palm oil’s in frigging everything.

Good point about the goats Captain
The sea/rivers are not suitable for growing crops but perfect for supporting fish and sea creatures which are a nutritious food source

No one seems to mourn the loss of insects and small creatures incurred whilst we pursue our obsession with grains.

Animals don’t need to be fed cereal grains. Humans also do not need to eat cereal grains ever but we have created a false need for both by the way we do livestock and the way we eat.

I eat meat but I don’t eat cereals and I eat far less food than my starch-reliant friends.

It’s frustrating that the cereal industry is never criticised. Cereals are nutritionally inferior and over-reliance on them have caused deficiencies eg pellagra.

When cereals are introduced to traditional people who previously were hunter-gatherers, those people become fat and diabetic.

I didn’t connect- less livestock to more land. Obvious now you’ve said it.

This is how little I know, hence my asking. When I thought about plant based diets, I was thinking more grains etc being used. Then also eating lots of vegetable, which would need lots of suitable land to grow them on.

So if someone ate only a plant based diet, what would a typical days meals look like?

I’m not sure but plant-based food is less filling in my experience whereas a fatty cut of meat could be extremely filling. A little goes a long way.. So if I ate a plant based diet I would defo eat more volume-wise

We don’t eat the whole animal either. If we did we would not need to eat as much veg because offal is nutritionally dense.

I think this is really interesting. You might like the book The Vegetarian Myth.

People forget too, that if we didn’t eat meat, the animals wouldn’t really exist.

We don’t need pigs. Apart from food.

Cows would be used for dairy, so again calf’s would be disposed of.

Chickens, again only need eggs, so males would still be disposed.

If everyone went fully vegan, all these animals would have no use and would die out

Never understand the argument about how animals will die out. Why is that a worse option than being bred for a life which often includes terrible pain and which ends in a horrific death? We only have so many species of farm animals in the first place because we selectively bred them into existence. Do we really care if some species of cow / pig / sheep eventually die out again?

In any case, it’s not going to happen. The whole world isn’t going to go vegan. But everyone has a moral duty to drastically reduce meat consumption, and saying ‘if we do that then some future pigs will never come to exist’ is absurd.

all these animals would have no use and would die out

I'm okay with that.

I don’t think they actually would die out if they were left to it. We feed them grain to fatten them up but left to their own devices what would they eat? Not grain that’s for sure. Chickens love insects and my understanding is that pigs eat anything! So actually they might start taking over as they wouldn’t all have predators. It would be good news for gardeners if ducks were roaming free as they eat slugs!
If we ate slugs that would be a turn up as I have enough to feed a village but that’s another story

Rabbits
Hares
Voles
Dormouse
Beetles
Bees
Slugs
Caterpillars
Butterflies and moths
Deer
Pigeons
Hedgehogs
Toads
Squirrels
Small birds
Geese

All killed in the pursuit of growing and harvesting cereal crops, vegetable crops and fruit growers.

There's probably loads more I could add to that list but that's just off the top of my head.

I always wonder why my sheep (living in the hills on grass for their whole lives before slaughter, pooing attracting flies for birds to eat and fertilising the soil for worms and other beetles) are seen as much more cruel and environmentally unfriendly than the spraying, shooting, ploughing, slicing/pulling/grinding with huge tractors that occurs in order to mass produce crops.

I have B12 deficiency, so have my injections and encouraged to eat red meant. Lots of vegetarians and vegans become deficient as far as I know- please correct me if I’m wrong.

So isn’t that saying we should be eating meat? That through evolution we should be? Or is there something else that provides us with this vitamin? (I would love it if it is as my injections and daily tablets, really don’t fill the deficit). If we had a plant based diet, would that mean everyone becoming deficient?

Thanks @Siameasy for the book recommendation, I will have a read. I’d never thought about all of this really, until the documentary. I’ve been really blasé about it. But it’s way deeper and more complicated than I thought.

Scrowy is the voice of reason and couldn't agree more.

*Soubriquet

People forget too, that if we didn’t eat meat, the animals wouldn’t really exist.*

Bet all the factory farmed animals are really thanking you for that

would that mean everyone becoming deficient?

No because there is this wonderful invention called vitamin supplements.

I’ve been trying to put this into words for years.
I have no issue with animals being eaten as long as they haven’t been mistreated when alive and are killed quickly and humanely.

I therefore tend to stick to lamb, certain fish, game and (properly) free range eggs but would welcome further advice on this.

Try to eat seasonal veg which hasn’t been flown in

I do eat grains though-mainly oats and bread.

Also try to avoid palm oil.

I am serious about eating and living as ethically and healthily as possible

You’re welcome - thanks for starting the debate I think about it a lot. Wheat Belly is also good, explains about how our use of cereals came about.

We have backed ourselves into a corner where we now may need cereals to feed the population. With the dawn of agriculture, populations grew. So the domestication of wild grasses was a crucial moment in human history.

The land that is being cleared is mostly for animal feed. Have you watched cowspiracy?
Hospitals are not full of vegans and vegetarians, please stop this ridiculous argument that vegans aren't healthy.

@HugsAreMyDrugs as you will have read, I mention that, as I too take that wonderful invention! However a ‘vitamin supplement’ bought over the counter has no effect on those who are deficient, which I’m guessing you know? Interestingly the injection needed is being cut back for many patients due to cost, they are instead being provided my prescription medication, which many are finding extremely inadequate.

My question was- WOULD everyone become deficient. Not how you manage that.

The vast majority of animals produced for meat do not have a life in a field. They are factory farmed in mass numbers, particularly in the US

Generally vitamin supplements are there to prevent deficiencies in the first place.

Have you ever been on a cardiology ward? Full of men who eat loads of meat. Doubt you will find any vegans there.

perhapsimight

Cowspiracy has largely been debunked. I thought people knew that?

If you exclude chickens from the statistics, the vast majority of animals in the UK are not factory farmed.

Do people travel the country seeing sheep and cows in fields and assume they are stunt livestock strategically placed to distract from the hidden animal factories over the hill?

Most of the land space being cleared in the amazon for example is used to grow plants which are then fed to animals. If we are the plants directly we would need a lot less- cows are actually not that efficient in energy conversion.
Watch Cowspiracy or one of those films if you want more of an idea
Plus we don’t have to wipe out all farm animals. A couple of cows around to graze the lawn and fertilise is nice. We just won’t have the ones squished into feed lots and then murdered :)