BMA vote not to charge "health tourists"

[IrmaFayLear]

Quite cross about this.

Different of course if someone has a heart attack/car accident, but to turn up specifically to access expensive maternity/cancer etc treatment is not only unacceptable but unsustainable.

Particularly annoyed because the pil's dementia care which they had to self-fund ran into many hundreds of thousands (at a humdrum establishment, too).

It sticks in one's craw to be told constantly that the NHS is crumbling but that an extra couple of billion per year is ok for health tourists.

It’s funded by our citizens to pay for healthcare for our citizens

This is completely wrong. It is paid for by people paying tax and NI to the UK government wherever they live and whatever their nationality. Citizenship does not come into it...

Doctors should not have any away on how tax payer's money is spent, including who is entitled to NHS treatment.

This whole 'drop in the ocean' argument to health tourism is widely inaccurate as let's face it, the NHS has literally no idea who is using the NHS as they never check, this thread is full of examples, and I doubt many people on Mumsnet are, for instance, illegallyl immigrants who are completely flying under the radar.

ID cards were unpopular when floated about 10 years ago but I think we've got to the stage of needing some sort of quick way for the NHS to identify who is resident and therefore entitled to NHS treatment. We need fingerprint ID to access the NHS so someone isn't left without treatment because they've lost their id card. I use finger print scanning to access mobile banking so whilst would need initial investment it shouldn't be so logistically impossible.

We also need to introduce visas where anyone visiting needs to have proof of health insurance, and I'm sorry from certain countries if you're obviously pregnant you should not be allowed to board the plane unless with a UK passport.

The above really isn't overly harsh when you consider that no other country in the world allows completely unchecked access to their healthcare system, even countries considered far more socialist than we are.

Too hard to implement charging? Costs insignificant? Then the solution is simple. Doctors pay can be cut across the board to fund it. Won’t make any difference to them will it? After all, the costs are do very small.

That makes no sense at all.

Other European Health Care systems are able to exclude those who are not entitled to treatment. The UK could do so as well if we were not so wedded to the the idea that the NHS is perfect as it is.

Emergency treatment would still be provided to those in need.

I agree, Marylou2, that health insurance should be mandatory for visiting the UK, checked upon entry.

Oh please, the amount of bloody idiots on these boards who don't buy travel insurance is ridiculous. I assume they are mostly British. GoFundMe is full of them.

Other European Health Care systems are able to exclude those who are not entitled to treatment.

Because their systems are completely different. How do people fail to understand this? Reimbursed health care means a lot of poor people cannot access healthcare. Free at the point of delivery doesn't have that risk. But does risk a small amount of health tourism. I'd rather have people able to access healthcare myself.

This whole 'drop in the ocean' argument to health tourism is widely inaccurate
No it isn't at all. Health tourism doesn't cost the nhs even 0.1% of what diabetes cost tax payers. 90% of diabetics are type 2, most of which can be 0reventrd by proper diet.

I much prefer to fund school nurses to help tackle childhood obesity or dieticians to help people who want to lose weight than accountants to bill foreigners with their stay who never pay and would need to be taken to court costing even more money to the nhs.

It's a bit like the "can't means test old people for benefits" argument. It would be more expensive and it would exclude some people you'd want to include.

The only reason to do it is ideological (and possibly racist and/or xenophobic).

@MrsTerry

Healthcare in Germany is free at the point of delivery. There is no reimbursed health care unless you have taken out private health insurance.

he amount of bloody idiots on these boards who don't buy travel insurance is ridiculous. I assume they are mostly British. GoFundMe is full of them

I agree, but can't quite see how that's an argument for funding healthcare for the unentitled ... after all, nobody's forcing us to chip in to crowd funding for our idiots who choose to travel without insurance

It sends out a message though that we are not a free for all health service and it should at least attempt to charge non domiciles if the case arises. At least this would be a deterrent.

'Having said all that, implementing a system that checked a person’s entitlement to treatment beforehand treating would delay treatment, cost a lot of money to implement and would take up a lot of admin time for health care staff.'

No; in Belgium, you go to the hospital, check in with the reception team who establish how you'll be paying, and are then sent off to your appointment. The bill arrives in the post about 10 days later, and you pay it online.

If you go to A&E, then your passport is seen or driving licence or EHIC if you are not in a Belgian scheme, or don't have a Belgian ID card, by the receptionist whilst you are waiting to be triaged. The bill for my Mum arrived home before she got back to the UK. My mil was admitted for 10 days here one New Year, and her travel insurance covered the bill.

Seeing the GP means at the end of the consultation, they write the bill, and you pay with your debit card there and then. You pay the pharmacy for any prescriptions, and the bill for any blood work arrives later.

@Mother

Exactly. The card shows you are eligible to use the system. If you do not have a card, you cannot use it.
Emergency treatment is available to all.

There is nothing unique about the NHS being free at he point of delivery. What is unique is that checks on eligibility are not carried out. There is no justification for this.

Lack of ID is a massive issue for homeless people, women fleeing violence and others. ID doesn't solve all issues. And I don't trust our government with ID.

We lived in Canada for 6 years. We had health cards, me, DH and two DCs.... They were requested at each and every appointment and acquired in person with our visas needed as proof of entitlement . Why oh why is it so difficult for the UK to do the same.

We can't possibly treat the entire world. I just do not understand it.

Is it the sacred nature of the post World War 2 state restructuring that we can't let go. Something has got to give.

To apply for an Ontario health card you need three separate pieces of ID. There are at least 9 ID clinics in Toronto dealing with people with no or inadequate ID. ID is not a lovely easy answer.

At least there are some compassionate and sensible people out there making good decisions about how we treat our fellow human beings.
It's easy to see all the negative stuff that we do to each other reported by the press. It's nice to see there is some humanity still in our crazy world.

Swissmilk. Absolutely.

This is completely wrong. It is paid for by people paying tax and NI to the UK government wherever they live and whatever their nationality. Citizenship does not come into it...

Yes, citizenship was the wrong word. I meant people who live here. Of course you don’t actually need to pay tax either - it’s for people who live here and funded by people who live here. Still not a charity for people from overseas.

It sends out a message

If you want to send a message, put it on Facebook. I'd rather things worked best for the most instead of being compromised by another layer of bureaucracy.

You know that extra billion pounds we gave the NHS ?
"Yes"
How come we didn't get a billion pounds extra treatment ?
"Well we had to put 15% into making sure we recovered that 0.3% that we thought might be lost due to overseas patients"
Very good, carry on. Time for you CMG, I believe
"Very good Sir Humphry"

Yes, let's fous on £300 million when diabetes cost over £7 billion and due to double in 20 years time. I know many people struggle with mathetical concepts but 1 billion is 1 thousand million. It is estimated that 1/6th of the nhs cost will be to treat diabetes related conditions.

If you are so keen to look after the nhs, start looking inwards, keep your weight down and encourage your family to do the same.

My SIL is a midwife in NI, which until about 15 years ago any child born there was entitled to Irish nationality. She said there were women coming from all over the world to give birth; mostly China and lots of asylum seeking women from England. It did put a strain on services but she said they never begrudged it. Apparently there were a lot of women from Eastern Europe too who they suspected were trafficked victims were able to access not only health care but social care for the first time. They had been living under the radar in NI and turning up to give birth allowed them access to another adult in private, where they could be signposted onto further services if needs be.
According to her this medical tourism was not a great expenditure (most turned up at the hospital to give birth or presented at 38 weeks) compared to the costs associated with maternal obesity, which causes complications for both mother and baby.
I am so glad we live in a system where no woman will be forced to give birth alone and possibly die because she does not have citizenship or the money to pay.

Why should it be either / or?