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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think having kids is NOT necessarily the worst thing you could do for the environment?

303 replies

Thewindblows · 18/06/2019 19:34

dons hard hat

Now hear me out!

Every time I hear this argument I think;

  1. It seems to assume that a human being's impact on the environment is equal to the sum total of their carbon footprint. Isn't life a lot more complex than that? Don't we all influence each other?
To take an obvious example - David Attenburgh has probably taken a SHITLOAD of international flights in his life, his carbon footprint must be massive. But would anyone say the world would have been better off without him, when through his work he has brought environmental awareness to millions? Of course the vast majority of us are not David Attenburgh. But let's say Jean Smith from down the road also cares lots about the environment, and tries her best to reduce her consumption and do her bit. Now, OF COURSE she is personally using more of the world's resources than if she didn't exist at all. But what if she has, through her lifestyle and activism, encouraged 5 of her friends to use cloth nappies and second hand clothes? Encouraged a few more to reduce their daily plastic use? Made one friend rethink his yearly long haul holiday? Through her activism, she has helped to push through plastic bag and bottle bans, and preserve a local woodland? How do we calculate this against her personal carbon footprint?
  1. People are, on average, fairly likely to have beliefs/follow lifestyles broadly similar to their parents (isn't this why some organised religions encourage people to have many children?)
The only people who are likely to be persuaded not to have kids for environmental reasons, are people who already care about the environment.

So let's say in both country A and B, 50% of couples care about the environment deeply, 50% of them are climate change deniers.
In country A, all the environmentalist couples decide it is best not to have children. All the deniers go ahead and have 2 kids per couple.
When the next generation grows up and is making the decisions ALL of them are the children of parents who don't care for the environment.
In country B, all the couples have 2 children. The next generation has 50% offspring of environmentalists, and 50% of deniers.
Yes, country B does now have a bigger population - but is it not clear that it also stands a vastly greater chance of implementing policies and making the real societal changes necessary to preserve the environment?

Considering the above, is it not better for someone who cares about the environment to actually have children if they want to, and raise them as responsibly as possible?
(Note by responsibly I don't just mean they try to remember their reusable bags at the supermarket sometimes - I'm talking the parents making real effort in every area of their lives personally, and also being involved in activism/campaigning/politics to try and effect real change. Modeling this to their children and raising responsible caring people.)

I'm willing to hear counter arguments to this!! Genuinely interested in what people think.

OP posts:
Tilikum · 19/06/2019 10:49

kikibo

Haven't read the thread, but two children per family is not enough to pay pensions and social security in general. The system as it was set up in the 50s and 60s pays for the older generation through the younger generation.

But this is just a never ending pyramid scheme where you'll always need more and more children being born to pay for the older population.

Yabbers · 19/06/2019 10:50

Essentially the population increase is by people living longer rather than more children being born.

And yet nobody suggests we stop with the medical advances in health which allow people to live longer. That would also have an economic advantage as older people contribute less.

That wouldn’t be a popular argument though, would it. Much better for the baby boomers to insist it is our generation fucking things up.

LaminateAnecdotes · 19/06/2019 10:55

I think people are seriously overthinking it, if they think that a population growth that has seen 2 billion become 7 billion in the space of 50 years is even going to notice anything legal, political or economic.

I think we'll all just have to sit back, strap in , and see what natures answer is. It's almost a dead cert we won't like it. But maybe we should have paid attention in the 60s Hmm

Gin96 · 19/06/2019 10:59

But surely the adults that immigrate here will have more children than 1 or 2, it’s a very dangerous game saying to Europeans not to have children yet have mass migration from other countries who have more than 1 child?

SerenDippitty · 19/06/2019 11:02

I’m currently reading Where my heart used to beat by Sebastian Faulks, in which the narrator has a theory that Homo sapiens is a freak and a catastrophe, since consciousness according to him is not at all necessary from an evolutionary point of view, and look where it’s got us. Interesting.

Passthecherrycoke · 19/06/2019 11:04

Tilikum I don’t think that’s the case at all. We haven’t had to keep up with the baby boomers generation have we?

TheNavigator · 19/06/2019 11:05

But surely the adults that immigrate here will have more children than 1 or 2, it’s a very dangerous game saying to Europeans not to have children yet have mass migration from other countries who have more than 1 child?

I'm just saying to a previous poster, don't pat yourself on the back that you are 'doing your bit' by having more than 2 children, because all you are doing is producing more people to deplete natural resources - all those cloth nappies still need washed. Own your selfishness in having a big family for your own gratification, don't try to pretend it is anything but a negative for the rest of the world.

AlaskanOilBaron · 19/06/2019 11:11

@magneticcrubmbles I'd love for you to return and tell us what your children are up to. Thanks.

AlaskanOilBaron · 19/06/2019 11:13

How surprising that the OP hasn't stuck around to respond.

araiwa · 19/06/2019 11:14

I suppose dropping nuclear bombs in several volcanoes causing worldwide eruptions would be worse than having children....

Yanbu

Gin96 · 19/06/2019 11:15

And i’m just that 1 child compared to the explosion of population in the rest of the world won’t make a blind bit of difference.

Passthecherrycoke · 19/06/2019 11:16

I agree with you gin. I don’t think anyone should plan their family for environmental reasons (and as I said previously don’t think they do)

PregnantSea · 19/06/2019 11:17

I agree with you OP, but it's not a popular opinion on MN.

The way that some people talk on here I'm surprised that they don't just kill themselves right now to reduce their carbon footprint. (This is a hyperbolic joke, please don't report me for encouraging people to commit suicide Hmm)

AppleandBananas · 19/06/2019 11:18

@Lifeover 3 generations? One side of my family has 5 Blush

My little lady (9.5mos)
Me (27)
My Mum (49)
My Nan (69, 70 in a couple of months)
My Great Grandma (94.5)

LaminateAnecdotes · 19/06/2019 11:18

I agree with you gin. I don’t think anyone should plan their family for environmental reasons (and as I said previously don’t think they do)

Exactly. Just let nature take care of itself. It's had billions of years experience.

QuestionableMouse · 19/06/2019 11:19

Honestly it's all a moot point unless the big companies are forced to reduce the waste they produce.
theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change

TeacupDrama · 19/06/2019 11:24

@thatsnotunusual the taxes in China were the least invasive but there are huge numbers accounts of forced abortions and sterilisations and people giving birth in mountains to avoid detection etc
however there are also enough resources on the planet for everyone but there are often not in the same places as the people and some countries like Zimbabwe has more than enough resources but because of politics not drought or famine arable land is left unplanted and unharvested and people end up in poverty

soulrunner · 19/06/2019 11:25

The issue is that at the present population level, it's almost impossible for humans to live without negatively impacting the planet. It's not just about climate change but about environmental degradation and loss of biodiversity (although those three things are linked and exacerbate one another). And the "produce future generations of workers" argument was debunked years ago. It'll just be more people for Jeff Bezos to pay BUI to in 20 years time. The economy of the future is not human capital intensive. Even if it's not, the world is not short of a workforce. They're just short of an appropriately educated and skilled one- very different problem with some obvious solutions.

LaminateAnecdotes · 19/06/2019 11:29

The way that some people talk on here I'm surprised that they don't just kill themselves right now to reduce their carbon footprint.

If you go for a fancy funeral with loads of relatives coming from afar, a really posh coffin and fancy nibbles and drinks for the wake you'd only have added to the carbon load on the planet anyway.

At some point a combination of pressure for ever more scare resources will drive fertility - and longevity - down. Also the same resources spread thinner and thinner over the population will definitely weaken some members to die before reproducing. And then there's the possibility of a pandemic like Spanish Flu just offing a few hundred million. That's before you consider that the human need for resources makes any natural phenomenon - a volcanic eruption, earthquake, flood or drought - that much more damaging on the precious resources we need to continue.

soulrunner · 19/06/2019 11:30

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change

Well yes and no. Depends if you look at production or consumption. The fossil fuel companies don't produce coal, gas and oil for themselves, do they? It's used by people in everything they do, and in an incredibly wasteful way. We have been too slow in switching to renewables but that's on all of us because we want cheap fuel.

LaminateAnecdotes · 19/06/2019 11:41

The main reason we have been slow to switch to renewables is that they're crap. And that was before the spivs moved in and queered the pitch by using them as a piggybank for the middle class.

Better batteries might change the renewables economics. However, like unmetered fusion power and room temperature superconductors that's been "10 years away" since I was 10 - in 1976.

kikibo · 19/06/2019 11:46

TheNavigator

The population might be expanding on a global scale, but it definitely isn't in Germany. Any idea why Merkel received one million people from Syria in one go? She knew eventually it would bite her in the bum. She won't tell you straight, but I'll eat my hat if part of the reason was not that they were young, able to work in menial jobs and, in time, a large part of them will create more Germans.
Of course, she could help matters by making it easier for people with children to get subsidised full-time childcare places and the like, so they get more babies (the average woman in this country now gets 1.5 or so), but that wouldn't be as fast and it would cost money.

Also I have nothing against this, but the UK is far more open socially to immigrants (whether they are white or not) than Germany. People will still refer to you as an immigrant if you are second or even third generation and born here. Especially if you are non-white. The one million Syrians who arrived here definitely brought gains to the AfD, especially in areas like Saxony, where people are leaving in droves.

Tilikon

I know. Still, it remains a fact that a long-term stagnating economy is a disaster. Look at Italy. Young people just can't get a job.

soulrunner · 19/06/2019 11:48

The main reason we have been slow to switch to renewables is that they're crap

But that's because they're hugely underinvested. Huge gains have been made in renewable technology but it hasn't been fast enough.

AlaskanOilBaron · 19/06/2019 11:51

Well yes and no. Depends if you look at production or consumption. The fossil fuel companies don't produce coal, gas and oil for themselves, do they? It's used by people in everything they do, and in an incredibly wasteful way. We have been too slow in switching to renewables but that's on all of us because we want cheap fuel

Good luck getting this point across. Someone will be along now to tell you that it's not her four children who are polluting the planet, but rather China. You know, all the pram/toy/cot factories.

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