To ask how you would address this behaviour?

[seriouslynonames]

DD is 3 going on 4. She is generally pretty well behaved, no issues at nursery, can be a complete angel when she wants to be. But with me, DP and her sibling she can be really rough/violent. Deliberate hitting and kicking, sometimes clearly in anger (shouting or almost growling at you) but other times laughing and running around like crazy and hitting/kicking (it hurts!). I know it's hard to self-regulate at this age so we are trying to be patient with this. But we need to find some strategies to address it. She is quite high energy and finds it very hard to switch off at bedtime (which is often but by no means always, when she displays this behaviour). She has never really been the throw herself on the floor tantrum type so I guess this is her way of expressing anger, frustration, excitement etc.
How would you or how do you respond /react /handle this sort of physical reaction from a 3-4 year old?
Grateful for your collective wisdom!!

Bump... Really welcome some suggestions!

The other day DD who is 2.5yrs kicked me...again. I made a huge fuss about being hurt (about 10 mins). She hasn't done it since. Praise the good, ignore the bad (if you can). My DM says move - don't be in arms reach when they go to hit you, but that's easier said than done

She sounds frustrated and over tired. What's her sleeping pattern? Is the sibling older or younger?

Would she respond to a reward chart (mine never really did)?

Could she be constipated and in pain? 1 of mine was always worse before a big poo was needed.

Thank you. Yes, I try moving away but she runs after you! I haven't tried making a big deal of being hurt, will give that a go! Sometime it really feels like she doesn't give a shit though!

I would praise all good behaviour and try and ignore the negative. One thing that really worked with my dd was once she had calmed down was asking her how she would feel if someone hit her she would usually respond with sad, angry etc. Then I would say well that's how mummy felt when you hit her.
Sometimes as well I would just ask her if she needed a cuddle and she would say yes and that would be it.

Older sibling (8). Definitely tired/overtired when she's doing it at bedtime, but she does it other times too. Yes sometimes it is frustration but other times it's almost hysteria. Not constipated, although I know what you mean, she does go a bit funny before a poo!

She doesn't really understand it's hurting you. She just knows that a) It stops you doing something b) gets a reaction.

Make sure you are labelling pain. So when she falls over / bangs her head / whatever, say "oh that hurt you" with a sad face (lots of parents want to chivvy children to look on the bright side and tell them they're not hurt, and that might be fine for some children, but if a child seems not to recognise pain in others, they need to recognise it in themselves first). Likewise if you injure yourself, tell her you hurt yourself and use facial expressions and change your tone of voice to express this.
When she kicks / hits, make sure you use these cues to show her that what she is doing to you hurts.

This may not stop her altogether, because she is still egocentric and developing empathy, but it will aid her understanding as she grows.

The other things you can be doing are good old-fashioned praise the good, ignore the bad, immediate consequence for unignorable behaviour.

Thanks. I really try to ignore but it's difficult as it often gets worse if I do that! Reward charts don't work. We have talked about feeling sad etc after she calms down and she says every time she won't do it again. She can't stop herself though. I do try to make sure it ends with a cuddle, actually the one thing that stops her in her tracks is when she hurts herself while hitting or kicking or running after you. The tears bring her back to earth and then it's cuddle time. But I can't wait for her to injure herself each time 😁

Thanks, that sounds like a good plan to label the pain, will give that a go. I need to find some immediate consequences that have an impact - she doesn't care if I take away a toy or turn off the TV, I have thrown away her treats (choccy, sweets) to follow through a warning and she shrugs and walks away (sometimes laughing!). Have to have another think about what she will care about ...
Thanks all so much for taking time to reply, it's really helpful to get some new ideas!

I'm sure there will be lots of suggestions for how to address this behaviour and you may need to try a few before you find the one that works. The main thing you need to do is address this issue and not ignore it. There is some very interesting research about emotional coaching to help children to understand their emotions. Labelling emotion and relating it to your feelings is key-if she isn't exhibiting this behaviour at school then she is exerting her power at home.

Thank you, I'll have a google of emotional coaching and see what I can find. She is definitely exerting her power! She behaves generally very well for grandparents, baby sitters nursery etc. She has trouble switching off and relaxing / getting to sleep, and that has been a biggish problem at times. Once she's asleep she stays asleep at least! She certainly knows how to keep us on our toes.... !

The walking away laughing makes me wonder if it's the attention she's enjoying. And, as mentioned by PP, enjoying the feeling of being powerful about to bring about a reaction from you.
Do you play with her much? Time spent playing interactive games with you could help meet these needs in better ways. Jenga, hide and seek, tag, snap, etc.

When my lot were this age I had an approach that any kind of hitting or hurting meant kids got removed from the room and sat on naughty step. Don’t tolerate it, the bigger they get the harder it is to stop. I’m a big fan of super nanny 😂 and it worked for us. Take her out sit her down and tell her- you have been sat on the naughty step and you have to stay here for three minutes (if she is three, 4 if she is 4,) because you kicked your sister. It’s naughty to kick. Serious voice is needed here. Then say- I’m going back in - wherever you are -and say I will be back in 3 minutes for you to say sorry. Go back in 3 mins and repeat the issue- “you have been put on the naughty step for kicking x kicking is naughty what do you say? She then should say sorry. If not she stays put and you repeat the process. If she won’t give in she goes to bed for half an hour. If it happens again more than three times that day I just sent em to bed for half an hour. The get her to say sorry. I always pop in the fact that if they scream or shout or try to smash or break anything while on naughty step or in bed that’s naughty behaviour too and they will have to start all over again. My kids are key stage 2 now, very very rarely would anybody lift a finger to hurt each other if they do they go to bed. Good luck

I realised when my youngest was little that I had to explain to him that grown-ups can get hurt! Because we seemed so big and strong and could do things that he couldn't, it didn't occur to him that he could hurt us. Once we explained and we made a bit of a show of saying 'Ow - that hurt me. I can't play any more because my leg hurts.' he realised that we weren't just there for his entertainment and we had feelings too!

Thanks. Yes sometimes it's clear she's enjoying the attention ... Both of us play with her although I know I don't play with her as much as I played with DD1, inevitably, and I know that some of these instances occur when I am helping DD1 with something rather than giving her attention. But even when me and DP are both around and so she has at least one of us to herself, she can still kick off.
I will try spending more time actively playing with her - and accept that the laundry pile will just get bigger! 😁

Thanks all. Naughty step is more hassle than it's worth sadly, she either enjoys being on it or it turns into a game for her with me repeatedly having to put her back on it as she just will not stay on it, not even one minute... We have tried so many times I have (rightly or wrongly!) given up on it!

Will definitely be making more of how much it hurts us when she does it!

@seriouslynonames -someone will most likely tell me that I was wrong with what I'm about to say about the naughty step ...but my DD10 is now a kind, sensitive, quirky girl who was a bloody nightmare aged 2/3/4!!

She wouldn't sit on the step...after it initially being about of a game I resorted to sitting her on the step, holding the tops of her arms and holding her legs with my elbows (if that sounds right!!) I would tell her she was sitting in the step for 3 minutes, hold her there and not look at her or speak to her. I would never have hurt her and it was more like a very controlled cuddle with no interaction ! After the 3 minutes I'd do the process explained by a PP (explain why she had been sat there, explained my it's wrong, got her to say sorry, have a hug, explain how she needed to at once she left the step)

Jordan B Peterson has a great chapter entitled something like "Don't let your children do anything that makes you dislike them" - he advocates parenting your children, not allowing them to hurt, break things etc. I'll see if I can find a link!

I think you need to give her alternatives when she's feeling energetic and angry or frustrated. Like PP you need to label the emotion and offer an alternative to the bad behaviour for coping with it. Sometimes something really simple, like breathing really slowly and counting your breaths until 5.

Found a link...he's not everyone's cup of tea!

Thanks Rioja and Soles. Will try the breathing/counting and will take a look at the link - am willing to try everything 😁. . When she is crying about a bump or fall, to calm her crying I ask her to breathe out slowly and she does it and is then able to catch her breath and tell me where it hurts/what happened etc. So maybe she'll be willing to try it when overexcited /frustrated. Thanks again for all the advice, lots of ideas to try!

I think you need to persevere with the naughty step- using the whole technique properly.

Of course she won’t react well to it, and it sounds as though she knows exactly how long to strop for your patience with the strategy to run out. Yes, it’s a faff. But it’ll do your head in a lot less than this constant random misbehaviour. Set yourself a 6 week period where everyone (partner, childminders, in-laws, etc) are clear that naughty step is being implemented- once and for all. If she gets up 200 times, you put her back 200 times. It has to get more boring for her. Believe me, the ‘game’ aspect wears off after about 30 minutes! Once you crack it, it’s the most useful technique ever. You can use it out in public, anywhere. For years and years.

Frankly your DD sounds like the perfect candidate for it- energetic, extrovert and attention-seeking. It’s the calm little introverts who LIKE quiet time alone that it doesn’t sometimes work with. Or the daydreamers.

My DM watched me implement the naughty step with DD and thought it was hilarious and concerning in turns. She’s got no patience (mum) and was a big smacker, back in the day. Now she’s a huge fan, and advocates it to everyone, having seen its positive effects!

I persevered, had to reach deep inside for the strength. There were some epic standoffs- but only about 3. It got a bit grim. My DH broke, and had to be sent away. Then one day DD just sat there, wriggling with frustration. When the 3 minutes were up, she apologised and never did that thing again. Then the next bad behaviour, and the next. It just wasn’t worth her while, she must have decided. She had too much FOMO to waste time fighting me about the step, or being sent to it.

At that age they aren’t going to understand or care much about other people’s feelings, but they sure are clear about their preferences!

Thanks! Hmm. Perhaps we should revisit the naughty step then... Will have to summon up some energy for it though 😁. It definitely worked at least a bit with the older one, but she is quite different to this little whirlwind!

I'll be the outlier and suggest the behaviour is a call to attention. Many parents, TV programs and advice books talk about behaviour management - but increasingly I think behaviour is communication.

I don't like this couched as power struggles, or naughtiness: it portrays the child with a rather unpleasant agency I just don't believe children have.

If, for example, a 4yo can't articulate their needs or desires, then anger and frustration will bubble up in the absence. That is completely normal. The question remains, thus, what are her unmet needs? If she is angry around bedtimes, could the transition to sleep be troubling her? Do bedtime routines and timings need looking at again? When I am tired, worries from the day become amplified. Is there something troubling your DD about preschool or is there more general frustration about language/self-expression? Our little ones are looking towards us to help regulate their worries, fears and emotions. 'Bad behaviour' is often a reach-out.

Food for thought I hope!

Boo- all behaviour is communication. It’s the form of communication that has to be labelled for kids to understand what is and isn’t appropriate behaviour no matter what the underlying message. Adults don’t get to go around punching or kicking each other because of any old underlying reason, and that self restraint has to be learned. I’m sure op knows if her child is upset before bed she is probably just tired. So for example I have had to say to mine, mid bedtime tantrum it’s ok to be tired, it’s not ok to kick me because you tired, because kicking is naughty- then go to naughty step process. If you don’t label behaviour and frame it simply as naughty or good for very young children they can’t understand. You would then look at bedtime and maybe adjust naps bedtime routine accordingly. I know a lot of lovely parents who have terribly behaved and physically mean kids because they don’t tell their kids that hurting or shouting at someone is “naughty” if I hadn’t communicated this to my dd she would still be slapping and biting now.