To ask you to stop flying

[Walkingthere]

We are facing a climate disaster. Our children will have to live through it. And yet I overheard two women today discussing how many holidays abroad they had been on this year. Both over 60 years of age. Obviously it will not directly impact on them.
This is also very common in my social group, people jetting off 4-5 times a year. Mini-breaks, weekends away, European trips, long haul, hen do's, weddings, birthdays. It's unbelievable how much people are burying their heads in the sand.

We need to stop flying. Urgently. Now. My family have not flown in over 5 years. We used to travel a lot, before we realised the consequences. I am putting this here, to make people think, we all need to urgently reduce (ideally stop) flying now.

But again the question arises:
Without immigration, what happens to the economy?

Bear in mind the birth rate for indigenous people in Europe has dropped quite drastically and at least one country Hungary, is incentivising it's people to reverse the trend with a zero income tax for life pledge to parents who have 4 children or more, 5 free cycles of IVF and heavily subsidised childcare.

It recognises that if it wants to reduce immigration it needs to offset that with growth in its own population, or the economy will suffer.

So unless we do similar here, how will we manage to reduce immigration feasibly?

And if people have more children anyway will it really do much to offset the carbon footprint of immigrants traveling here? Since children in economically advantaged countries consume more anyway.

Not if they don’t have access to cheap energy and abundant resources. If combating global warming means we put developing countries at an economic disadvantage, you’ll see even more displacement.

Good point.

Yep!

But this thread shows the problem.

Everyone looks for someone else to give something up before they will change.

In some countries, population growth is solely down to immigration numbers (and their higher fertility), so that would be an easily way to cut numbers. It’s not widely discussed however

Not necessarily. Migrants from Eastern Europe tend to have fewer children than Brits.

If population growth is down we eventually will need fewer immigrants, currently we need more because we need them mostly in the service and care sectors.

Everyone saying we should have less children, if that’s the case why do we need immigration? Does immigration cause environmental issues?

The "we" in "We should have less children" is the entire population of the world - Our fellow humans . And it's interesting someone hears "we" and immediate thinks "me". Although as an example of why nothing will change, it's perfect.

The UK "needs" immigration because it's proved more expensive to have our own children than a nice lifestyle. Hence the ageing population and decreasing availability of resources to care for them. So we need to import younger people to fill that gap.

If the UK were to close it's borders tomorrow, then the only prospects for the younger generation will be that of looking after the older generation. That's how demographics and facts work - despite whatever peoplez feelz are.

It would suit me I hate flying

Not necessarily. Migrants from Eastern Europe tend to have fewer children than Brits.

Far too tired to google right now but I"m not sure this is quite right.

If population growth is down

Population was 3,700,000,000 when I started school in 1970 and passed 7,000,000,000 after 2010.

That's as good as doubled in 40 years.

Growth isn't "down" - it's increasing.

If the UK were to close it's borders tomorrow, then the only prospects for the younger generation will be that of looking after the older generation. That's how demographics and facts work

Sorry could you explain this better? (genuinely I'm ill and don't always process things cognitively well)

As I see it, the current young generation Generation X and so forth have a different outlook on life than we did. Why would they sit still and devote themselves to looking after us? The world is open to thrm in a way it never has been to us.

Also no matter which way you look at it. Our mainstay economically is our service sector (as far as I understand) so regardless of whether we shut the borders and have fewer demands for those services it still results in a shrunken economy.

Maybe the robot economy will save us.

TheRedBarrows

Everyone looks for someone else to give something up before they will change.

The irony of your post is that it also includes the OP whilst overlooking those that have said

"I have stopped doing X, Y and Z yet you want me to give up more."

The biggest issue is that more often than not, those that are the loudest voices are doing the least.

Total fertility rape in Poland was 1.45 in 2017 and falling in 2018, Romania 1.58 , Bulgaria 1.56.

UK is 1.80.

I personally know 1 person who has more than two kids from former Eastern Block. And they are not even in UK. So I support @ChardonnaysPrettySister claim.

Are you really talking about stopping immigration for environmental reasons?
Hope you are ready to say goodbye to things ranging from cheap lunch sandwiches, cheap deliveries, high number of restaurants and cafes to teachers and health care

So not only we apparently steal jobs while simultaneously lazying around on benefits, hence "stealing" them of Brits. Not only we are apparently reason why NHS has problems. We are also largely responsible for environmental fuck up.
Amazing.
Hope Robinson or Farage aren't on MN🙄

Are you really talking about stopping immigration for environmental reasons?

Why are you against even discussing this? It’s true that their carbon footprint increases as they move to developed economies. Managing a declining population has to be an issue up for discussion.

I know Japan has to deal with it, it will be interesting to see if there is a good way to manage it.

As an addendum, I know the US-based environmental NGO Sierra Club used to be anti-immigration for this very reason, and remained so for quite some time, beyond the point where it was no longer considered politically correct. Now they have totally changed to be supportive, but it’s not really founded on environmental reasoning. It’s all politics.

Here’s an interesting WaPo article from 1998 on it: www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1998/03/07/immigration-policy-dispute-rocks-sierra-club/53e6cc16-5568-4b86-b464-e0488913104a/?utm_term=.0be92098cadc

The only prospects for the younger generation will be looking after the older generation
Imagine a society where all of the young and able were required to look after the increasing numbers of frail elderly people and there are no able people left to any of the other work

Women are increasingly choosing not to have babies, they realise that men often aren't willing to step up and bear an equal share of the burden imposed by having children, they realise that they can earn their own money and have a good quality of life, being a parent is increasingly not a favourable option. Or it only looks like a good option when you are older and have established your earning potential and career but by this time it is much more difficult to conceive.

We all focus on the dangers of population explosion but population decline can be exponential and catastrophic

As I understand it (based on news reports from sources that are always necessarily reliable) Japan has recently relaxed it's immigration rules to try and attempt to plug the gaps in its blue collar workforce.

They have brought in a new 2 tier visa system one which is short term for blue collar workers and another long term for higher skilled migrants. They are worried about their economic growth. How it will effect their overall group identity remains to be seen. As I understand it they have previously not been keen to embrace 'outsiders'. I think there's a belief that they cannot truly be Japanese.

As more and more young women see their friends choosing not to have babies so it becomes increasingly normal not to be a parent or to have only one child

I agree. Especially short distances.... But the onus shouldn't just be on people. Trai networks, money and research in regards to optimizing ocean liners and clean fuel for ships etc is just as important (no, more important!!!) imo.

I know Japan has to deal with it, it will be interesting to see if there is a good way to manage it.

The thought of the clueless morons in the Japanese government / civil service "dealing with it" is hilarious.

A few years ago I answered the door quite late at night. It was a woman from the town hall, who apologised for disturbing me, and explained she only needed to speak to Japanese people. So I called me wife, and the woman said she was knocking on people's doors to see if they were unmarried and to try to match them up with other unmarried people, so they'd have children.

That was the solution, at local government level.

There's no chance that the cretins in power here will come up with a solution. They are going to have to deal with the consequences of decades of their non-child-friendly policies.

Are Japanese people that obedient Badlad?
Will they respond to those kinds of... interventions?

As I understand it they have previously not been keen to embrace 'outsiders'. I think there's a belief that they cannot truly be Japanese

I lived in Japan for years. Yes, you cannot be Japanese, even if you speak Japanese and renounce your citizenship for a Japanese passport (know someone who did this). It’s a legal fiction, no one actually believes they are the same as a local.

I don’t believe the new visa category gives blue collar workers any right to stay past five years, and they also cannot bring family. It seems designed for people to make a bit of money in Japan and return home.

The white collar visa can be renewed as long as they are employed, it will be interesting to see how that shapes up.

the woman said she was knocking on people's doors to see if they were unmarried and to try to match them up with other unmarried people

Wow, how rural are you? It’s not like I think Japan will come up with a brilliant idea, but I do believe they have the funds and infrastructure to muddle through.

The real issue is that rural economies in Japan were never economically sustainable! Everyone that can moves to Tokyo or the Kansai region, putting more pressure on urban services. How can you even think about a second child when you are living in a typical Tokyo apartment?

Are Japanese people that obedient Badlad?
Will they respond to those kinds of... interventions?

I don't think so. I was posting it to illustrate the fact that they have no clue how to solve the problem, rather than as a solution that might work.

Long working hours, cramped, shit housing and crippling costs are difficult to deal with.

Wow, how rural are you?

I was very rural.

The decline in population is huge. More than 400,000 last year.

www.google.co.jp/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/29d594fa-5cf2-11e9-9dde-7aedca0a081a