To think his proves the government haven't got a clue about poverty?!

[whatthewhatthewhat]

Disgusting

chancellor

i've had a very quick look at the UN report now as previously I only looked at the chancellors comment.

And actually i think its even more shocking that the chancellor has rejected the report outright as it includes quite wide range of things that are really easy to evidence.

my child hasn't been to school this year because the LA have run out of funds so a special school place doesn't exist for him. I am feeling that the UN pointing out the holes in the social safety net and cuts to LA funding having an impact is a very relevant point. Think about that. No education at all due to money.

I take on board that if you say poverty a lot of people think 'starving, no shelter' and its important that they know that the UN is looking at a bigger picture than that or they might too 'reject the UNs finding'

silver that would be bacsue a wage of 30k (per person) per year IN LONDON is actually very low.
30k per year where I live is way above the average wage and is considered a very good income.
Just have a wander around some areas in Middlebrough or Cumbria/Middlands and you will see poverty. You dnt need to ask peple how much they earn. Im sure that what you will see isnt what you get in that area in London.

And thats true that it is about disposable income etc... and yes I can probably get more from the same amount where i live rather than in London. On the other side, there is also plenty of opportunities that just dont exist at all. Even the chpice in supermarket is reduced because they know people will not buy more 'fancy' things due to the cost.

I take on board that if you say poverty a lot of people think 'starving, no shelter'

Thats an interesting comment when you think people do see Eastern countries as being poor (thats obvioulsy why they come to the uk! So much more money here) but the EU thinks otherwise.

As the UK, I would feel ashamed to know that some parts of my country need outside support because they are so poor whilst at the sam time refusing to acknowledge it even hapens.

FWIW, a lot of people arent starving to death or in the street because they have a network around them. Friends and family that they could sofa surf with. Borrow money etc... You migt not 'see' those people but they exist nervertheless.

And YY about all the holes in the social services etc.... As well as the non respect fo human rights, immigrations issues etc etc

There are people living in poverty in the U.K. I find it abhorrent that it’s 2019 in the U.K. and people can’t afford to buy food and are relying on food banks.

But I don’t believe it’s as high as people say it is. On paper we are classed as living on poverty. Of course we aren’t. We run 2 cars, have a holiday every year and live a normal life. Yes we have to save if we want anything and our savings get depleted often as the house needs a lot of work. But we are fine. I certainly don’t class myself as being in poverty.

We shouldn’t even be discussing relative poverty. Baring the exceptions who have slipped through the safety net of the welfare state (they do exist), it is ridiculous to say that people love in poverty here. They may be poor relative to some people but are they actually poor? The state provides everything from healthcare and education to money for living expenses. If people actually want to erradicate poverty in Britain they need to stop pretending that a large number of people at the bottom are hard done by and start focusing on the ones who aren’t actually protected by welfare, why that is and, find a solution to help them. Saying that 14 million are living in relative poverty is an excuse not to help the small minority who live in actual poverty.

There are people living in poverty in the UK. Those who fall through the cracks through no fault of their own and these people need to be supported. Zero hours contracts, expensive housing and rising prices are catastrophic for some families.

However I dont believe it is as widespread as figures would suggest. I also believe that bad money management can play a big part in how some people manage to fall into poverty. But its hard to get your own safety net when you are barely getting by.

Firstly as it is defined (in 2015/6 for a family of 2 adults and 2 children) as 'only' having £1738 per month after housing costs.

I didn’t know this so does that mean most younger people (with high mortgages & high rents) in London are in poverty?

@ComeAndDance

Actually also one of the most deprived areas in the whole of the EU, incl Eastern countries (see the fact that the EU considers that out the 10 mosr deprived areas in the EU, 9 are in the UK. The Uk kas some very rich areas but also some VERY poor ones).

That fact actually isnt true.

fullfact.org/economy/does-uk-have-poorest-regions-northern-europe/

Grasspigeons has it - re-read his/ her post until it sinks in; a child doesn't get to go to school because of the poverty of a local authority.

The awful thing is, inequality (including absolute poverty) is the very foundation upon which capitalism is based.

If we were to have a truly equal society, the aspiration and entrepreneurial endeavour upon which capitalism is based will just cease to exist.

I wouldn't vote for the Green Party, for various reasons, but I do respect them for being honest. They are the only mainstream party open enough to say that if we do really want an equal society, then we need a paradigm shift away from the current Capitalist system.

The trouble is, we've yet to find a better system that is actually workable in practice.

“Firstly as it is defined (in 2015/6 for a family of 2 adults and 2 children) as 'only' having £1738 per month after housing costs.”

It sounds like a decent amount but as PP said, it’s about the reality of living a working lifecycle with £1738 per month. Usually people say oh that’s loads, £300 for food, £200 travel, £150 council tax, £100 gas and electric etc and just list basic bills. But £1738 is not enough for:

-The 2 working adults to contribute into s meaningful pension scheme

• various insurances many wealthier people pay as standard: life, critical illness, contents, appliance breakdown etc

• it could make buying shoes, quality winter coats, school uniforms etc a strain at certain times of the year, and as hoc one off purchases like white goods may have to be met through high interest debt

• it is a level that can make establishing savings for a rainy day difficult which also potentially can lead to high interest debt to cover unexpected expense

@fancynancyclancy it doesn’t make any difference. It’s after housing costs

I agree that relative poverty is not a good measure of poverty. Arguably it can be seen as a measure of inequality within a society. The UK is an increasingly unequal society. So I would split the two issues i.e. support for anyone who is in absolute poverty and steps to tackle inequality.
I am one of the comfortable “haves” but the current levels of inequality are unsustainable.

Passthecherrycoke

I think some of that is already accounted for in the measure. The detail of it is here and I've C&P'd the info on the number below. So the £1738 is e.g. after tax and work pension contributions and after council tax and water.

The income measure used in HBAI is weekly net disposable equivalised income Before
Housing Costs measuring income from all sources from all household members including:
 usual net earnings from employment;
 profit or loss from self-employment (losses are treated as negative income);
 state support – all benefits and tax credits, including state pension;
 income from occupational and private pensions;
 investment income;
 maintenance payments, if a person receives them directly;
 income from educational grants and scholarships;
 the cash value of certain forms of income in kind, including free school meals.
Income is net of:
 income tax payments and National Insurance contributions;
 domestic rates/council tax;
 contributions to occupational pension schemes;
 all maintenance payments;
 student loan repayments;
 parental contributions to students living away from home.
Income After Housing Costs is derived by deducting a measure of housing costs from the
overall income measure. Housing costs include:
 rent (gross of housing benefit);
 water rates, community water charges and council water charges;
 mortgage interest payments;
 structural insurance premiums;
 ground rent and service charges.

I still don’t get it Passthecherrycoke because when you see posters on here saying they are on 70k & don’t have much left over, other posters shoot them down & say you’re in the top 10% etc of earners, etc

That's becasue the top 1% earns so very very much more!

That's becasue the top 1% earns so very very much more!

No, they're irrelevant because the "median" average is used not the mean, so it doesn't change whether the highest earner has an income of a million or a billion. Median is all about where people sit on the scale of relative earnings, not the actual amounts.

The "mean" average is about actual amounts and is higher at £34k as per the graph.

If there is poverty in the UK, it is pretty much self inflicted for the most part. It's not hard grinding poverty of nostalgic bygone days

Poverty was following coal lorries with a bucket hoping to pick up coal that fell on the ground.

Not having a holiday is not poverty. Not having a flat screen TV is not poverty.

You see documentaries around the world of starving, unclothed people. I have never seen anyone without shoes in the UK.

@Gth1234, watch I, Daniel Blake, then come back and tell us what you think. Self inflicted indeed. Tell that to people who are sick, disabled, mentally ill, victims of domestic violence. Ignorant, stupid crap.

Sorry Kazzy I keep forgetting it is the Median... and corrected for household makeup too! Ignore me!

Gth

Are mental health problems self inflicted? Are relation breakdowns self inflicted? Are benefit screw ups self inflicted?

Simple example - we are landlords, our tenants are a family but the children are uni age. The DH was a mini cab driver but fell sick. They applied for Housing Benefit to pay the rent. The council took 10 months to process it. They fell into massive arrears and we could have served a s8 eviction notice. They would then have been voluntarily homeless (non payment of rent) with no minor children so the council wouldn’t have to help them. If we evicted them they would have slipped into poverty pretty quickly. I suspect there are plenty of people in these sorts of situations. ( One London council used to be so bad in processing HB claims that DDJs started refusing to hear / order evictions of council tenants for non payment of rent where the council was sitting on a HB claim for months)

14 million is roughly 1 in 5 of the UK population. 3.6 million households in the UK (so probably 7 million people) consider themselves to be millionaires. So relative poverty is not a good measure. Relative poverty is worked out as being below a certain percentage (I think 60%) of the median income. So whether the majority of those who are above the median are on £50,000 or £5,000,000 is irrelevant - it doesn't affect the median. So that is not a reason for considering relative poverty to be a poor measure.

Poverty as a headline figure will never be eradicated whilst it is worked out as the median of all incomes It's not worked out as the median, it's a fraction of the median. In theory, you could bring everyone up to within 99% of the median and still not affect the median value.

One reason for using relative poverty is that it is a way of measuring how much money you need to take part in society, for example, can you afford to invite a friend home, which might involve offering them a cup of tea and turning the heating on. If we have a large number of people who can't afford to be part of society, who don't feel part of society and don't see any way of getting out of their situation, it doesn't augur well for the rest of us, when our law and order is based to a large degree on most of the populace being law abiding because they feel they have a stake in society.

The awful thing is, inequality (including absolute poverty) is the very foundation upon which capitalism is based

But capitalism is the only system that’s proven to work. Societies are freer - everyone is free to find a niche and exploit their talents, which is in everyone’s best interest. We create more goods, make more money, live longer, live happier.

Why is inequality wrong? It’s inescapable. We none of us are unequal in human dignity, but we aren’t all equal in terms of talent or aptitude.

Look, I know I will be accused of being heartless.

Are mental health problems self inflicted? Are relation breakdowns self inflicted? Are benefit screw ups self inflicted?

Of course many relation breakdowns are self-inflicted. Mental Health problems may be self inflicted, depending on what they are. The circumstances leading to a need for benefits may be self-inflicted. Not all, but not none either.

Take this

"The awful thing is, inequality (including absolute poverty) is the very foundation upon which capitalism is based. "

It just isn't. Western societies are based on opportunity for all. Of course some start out better off than others. However relatively, the vast majority of us are much better off than our ancestors, and certainly much better off than most people in many third world countries. We all have wonderful opportunities. Many of us succeed in advancing ourselves to an incredible extent. Some don't. It's better to have the opportunity and fail, than to be denied the opportunity at all. We wouldn't have cars, computers, TV, foreign holidays, restaurants, without capitalism. Do you ban all gambling companies because some people can't control themselves? Do you ban alcohol and tobacco because some people can't control themselves? Do you ban drugs because some people can't control themselves?

You don't see many people (refugees, or economic migrants) trying to escape the West to move to Africa and Asia, do you? It is just puerile to pretend that 14m (a quarter) of the population are in poverty.