Civil Service pay help (SEO)

[cshelp]

I'm applying for an SEO role in a non departmental public body. It was described as £35,175. Because it's a public body it advertises its salaries, in the salary organogram(sp?) it described its SEOs as being on a minimum of £35,175 and maximum of £41,999 (or thereabouts). So am I to assume the salary range is actually £31,175-£41,999, incremental depending on appropriate PDRs? I'm not talking about negotiating, I'd happily start on £35,175, just hoping I can progress up to £42k eventually. Sorry if this is a stupid question, the fact it was only described as £35,175 has me worried.

Previously it would have been straightforward- as long as you were getting suitable performance markings you'd go up a step each year for 5 years then you'd be on the max(or rate for the job as it was called). Now most CS jobs have got rid of steps (on the instructions of the government) and it depends on performance. But the pay cap means they can't give even the highest performers enough to make progress to the max. Basically the max is unachievable. We're looking at an age discrim claim as the situation has got so bad.

Agree with above. The previous structure allowed clear progression up to the max, this isn’t the case now. Our union is looking at strike action over pay.

I'm a CS and in my dept there is no progression up the pay scale at all. So you'd be on the minimum for the foreseeable.

Yes, I’m afraid I was going to say the same: the only way you can progress is to be promoted

Yeah you basically start on the minimum and you may get something like a couple of £100 rise a year or something depending on pay negotiations every year. But the top is unachievable if you are starting at the bottom. They advertise the scale though because if you were transferring from say another department, as an SEO higher up the scale, you would transfer over on that salary provided it fell in the advertised range. If it were more than the advertised range then I suspect you'd be on marked time.

Gosh that's bad isn't it, this job has quite a bit of responsibility and while I would be happy for this pay in the short term, not the long term. I never discuss pay but if I am offered the job I will be this time. It's always been natural progression (on good performance) everywhere else I've worked across the public sector.

They put the banding in in case you’re transferring from another dept - eg my dept is in the lowest paying quartile, so other civil servants moving in need to be able to retain what they were on, or no one would join. But if you come in from outside you can’t progress at the moment

It depends on the department, in our non ministerial department you would start on £35175 then there's 3 increments and you would reach the band maximum on you 4th anniversary.
You do not negotiate pay in the civil service everyone at that grade and seniority receives the same. The only pay negotiations go on between HR and your Union.

Me too! This is why I left. I was a top performer stuck on about £500 above the bottom of the pay grade for year after year as they never incremented me up it. So I moved jobs and took a £5K pay cut. After a payrise of £4.5K this year I'm almost back where I was, and next year I'll get the same again, plus hopefully promotion

I loved working for the civil service but am not prepared to sit at the bottom of the payscale forever. So I left. I'm not the only one. IME many many civil servants will put up with being treated badly but they've gone too far, we can hack it for nearly a decade non stop.

V glad I at least got 2 mat leaves out of them

Would you expect to get promoted within a reasonable time frame? That would be your pay rise goal in real terms. Is SEO a promotion for you or could you look to progress fairly quickly?

I think coming from outside you can negotiate starting higher than the band min if you're coming from a higher salary. I managed an SEO who started on £40K because she was moving from a private sector job on about £50, so rather than insult her that much they gave her a bit of a softer landing

Finally promo from SEO to the next one up is a big step generally, so I wouldn't bank on it any time soon. There will be a lot of internal candidates chomping at the bit for that leap too, and depending on the dept etc the numbers at G7 (next one up) decrease steeply c/w SEO

@emsyj37

Yeah it's still a £5000 pay rise and more importantly I'm not getting a public sector pension atm it's awful so it would be a better pension than I'm on now. It would develop my skill set into something that is much more in demand so I think it would open my options. I'm not sure on progression tbh as I'm in quite a specific field but it's not out of the realms of possibility I guess, but could easily change employers I imagine. I'm less stressed for the interview now then though as it's not the jump I hoped it would be ha!

This role isn't strictly civil service (quango) they are using the old competency framework, I wouldn't be a civil servant. Have all quangos followed the CS pay scale? It doesn't get all it's funding from central government.

Is it worth me trying to negotiate the salary if it's looking like it'll be static? See if I can get something a bit more than £35k if that's what I will be on for the foreseeable?

I would just ask them how it works in that organisation. It's a fair question and they may well be expecting you to raise it. See what they say when you bring it up?

@emsyj37 thank you, would you do at interview or wait to see if you're offered it?

I would probably ask at interview, just general stuff about progression and salary increments and the situation but not try to negotiate or talk specifics until offer. But that's based on no particular CS knowledge as I joined on a grad scheme that used an assessment centre and there was no interview at all during the process!!! Always thought that was a bit weird. I've interviewed plenty of times in the private sector pre-CS days and seemed to do all right tho, so hopefully my advice isn't a million miles off the mark!

()thank you, would you do at interview or wait to see if you're offered it?()

No point asking at interview as the interviewers have no say in pay, it's all done by HR. I'd ask if you're offered it.

The forcible removal of progression and failure to fund performance pay properly is shocking. I didn't sign up for being paid £6k less than my peers forever !

Yes HR/union pay negotiations was what I meant in my previous post, sorry if I made that sound like you could negotiate!

I work in a "quango" we get no funding from central government but are all civil service, but there's no problem getting to the top of your paygrade 100% of staff in our department who have been in post for 4 years are on the maximum.
I would not mention pay at an interview especially a compentcy based one as it won't be HR who are interviewing you, the interviewers are more likely to be grade 7s and have nothing to do with pay.
In our department pay is non negotiable.

@emsyj37 thank you. I never discuss pay at interview but then it's always been quite transparent I've never needed to, I think it would be a fair question to ask if there is a salary scale.

I agree that coming in from the outside you MAY be able to negotiate starting at a particular point. This certainly seems to be the case for some senior civil servants transferring in from the private sector. It doesn't hurt to explore/ask, once you're in its probably a lot harder (as PP said negotiations take place between union and HR), so you may as well do all you can to explore a higher starting salary before you start.

Don't mention pay at the interview - HR are unlikely to be there. I wouldn't know the answer to that in my Department. I'd like sit until you get an offer.

Oh ok, thank you I won't mention pay then. I will see if I get it and take it from there. I guess I need to remember it's still better than where I am now and opens the door to other opportunities if I feel I get held back. Glad I asked you guys so I didn't get too excited if I got the job, that would have been a nasty shock 😂

Sorry wait until you get an offer!