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AIBU?

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Original poster

I should of known...

144 replies

UnaCorda · 01/06/2019 21:52

Yes, the title is deliberate - sorry to have been clickbaity.

Expecting to be flamed although am trying not to be offensive, but this has been bugging me. Can anyone suggest why certain otherwise apparently well-educated people make up their own grammar rules?

I'm thinking of things (all of which I've seen "committed" by numerous people) such as deciding "thank you" should be hyphenated, or separating sentences or clauses with ellipses rather than a comma/semicolon/full stop, or leaving a space before exclamation and question marks, etc. (there are probably others).

I'm not having a pop at anyone who is dyslexic, or didn't have access to a decent education or who is writing in a very relaxed way because the context is informal. More trying to understand why some people seem to follow their own special set of grammar and punctuation rules which are consistent, but wrong.

I see punctuation as a way of getting across the inflections that you can hear in speech, so I don't know why you would want to fuck about with that and make your meaning unclear in the process.

(And apologies that this isn't in Pedants' Corner, but there's hardly any traffic there.)

OP posts:
Yabbers · 02/06/2019 00:12

I'm sure it's not like maths, where there's a clear-cut answer

Are you sure about that? Ever seen those FB posts asking a mathematical question, usually ones which involve BODMAS? There follow a whole bunch of people getting it wrong, another bunch, often patronisingly explaining BODMAS, and inevitably a debate over whether it is BODMAS or BIDMAS.

Saracen · 02/06/2019 00:18

I put it to my teen that compared with me, she is at quite a disadvantage in learning spelling, grammar, and usage. Both of us have learned mainly by exposure to examples rather than rules.

Decades ago, when I was her age, most of the material which I read had been seen by a copy editor or proofreader before going to press. Most of the material which she reads is on the internet. Most is self-published, and has only been checked by the author.

She sees examples of good writing, but alongside it she sees far more examples of bad writing. I'm not surprised by the child mentioned upthread who found "alot" more familiar than "a lot".

I love the ready flow of information and ideas on the internet, but this is part of the price we pay for it.

reesewithoutaspoon · 02/06/2019 00:19

I went to school in the 70's. We weren't taught any grammar rules, apart from what a verb and a noun was. I still struggle with grammar and don't enjoy writing, because I am acutely aware that my punctuation and grammar let me down.

Time40 · 02/06/2019 00:29

Another massive irritation, for several decades, is that my ex-husband was expensively educated yet even now, at 60, hyphenates 'to-day', 'to-night', 'to-morrow', as well as 'thank-you'

Well, that used to be correct. I used to write them like that.

PregnantSea · 02/06/2019 00:32

I see a huge difference between writing in a formal setting and posting on an online forum. If I'm writing an email for work or a letter (yes, there are very rare occasions when I write letters!) then I will use proper English. I am well educated in the rules of our language but I don't really care about them when I'm posting on Mumsnet. I choose to ignore a lot of them and sometimes I can't be arsed going back through a post and editing out typos. I think it's important to be understood but does splitting infinitives and using ellipses really stop you from understanding what another poster cooked for dinner last night?

And as for the posts that are so poorly written you can barely understand them, I think they are usually written by people who genuinely don't have a good grounding in the rules. Those people are still allowed to post.

Livpool · 02/06/2019 00:37

IMHO I think views towards language should be descriptive rather than prescriptive.

Such 'small' changes help language evolve. Otherwise, we would all be talking like Chaucer 🤷🏼‍♀️

SarahAndQuack · 02/06/2019 00:40

daddad - erm, perhaps you don't feel patronised because, up to this point, no one has indicated that you should not dare to comment on any tangential issues, and you should leave it to the experts to start new threads?

I am aware this is a tedious reference to another thread, but I thought it was incredibly rude to act as thread police and then to start your own thread raising a question that you'd insisted wasn't allowed on the original thread.

LauraKsWhiteCoat · 02/06/2019 00:44

Decades ago, when I was her age, most of the material which I read had been seen by a copy editor or proofreader before going to press. Most of the material which she reads is on the internet

That's a really good point - how will young people know what is correct and what isn't when they read all sorts of self-published crap online? And what will the consequence be? Will we see a steady slide into poor grammar and spelling I wonder?

madroid · 02/06/2019 00:49

Most grammar police are just snobs. And ill-educated at that ! Anyone whose studyed language no's that its a constantly evolving phenomenon and that rules of grammar; punctuation and spelling are arbitrary and fashionable. I predict in another 30 years it will be correct to write should of.

PomBearWithAnOFRS · 02/06/2019 02:17

A space before and after a ! or ? is the old fashioned convention though.
If you look at old books published before about 1940, you see it all the time.
Come to think of it, there may well be a space before : and ; too.
I have some of O. Douglas's novels from the 30s and they are very "correct" and have the extra spaces that we just don't bother with now.
There are some odd spellings too, things like "cocoa-nut" (coconut) and "frig" for fridge.

SignedUpJust4This · 02/06/2019 07:53

Does anyone else frequently see 'are' instead of 'our'? Again I can forgive poor spelling and grammar but that's not even the right words!

Canone · 02/06/2019 07:59

I have so many friends who do the ellipses thing... It’s as though they’re interchangeable with full stops... They’re not... I don’t understand where this seems to have sprung from all of a sudden...

DonkeyHohtay · 02/06/2019 08:02

I remember one lesson we learned what alliteration, onomatopoeia, and a metaphor were.

In terms of what the OP is speaking about, that's advanced stuff. Writing could of, or confusing your/you're and there/their/they're is far more basic. Primary school level stuff. Some people haven't studied English language in any great depth which is fine, but everyone has that basic primary education of knowing that a noun is a naming word, a verb is a doing word and how to use the apostrophe.

I was at school during the 80s in Scotland and my grammar lessons were not on depth at all. But they did hammer home the basics and "red penned" mistakes. We didn't learn things about subjects/objects and clauses but certainly knew where to place an apostrophe.

DonkeyHohtay · 02/06/2019 08:08

Anyone whose studyed language no's that its

Bravo! 4 errors in 7 words, bet that took some brainpower on a Sunday morning.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 02/06/2019 08:09

Ooh I want to know the difference between 'but' and 'however' now too!

My students use them interchangeably as the same conjunction. "But" is commonly a conjunction, however, whereas "however" is most commonly an adverb. If it is used to join two clauses, it needs to be preceded by a semi-colon and followed by a comma:

I began to watch the new BBC drama; however, I quickly realised it was shit.
I began to watch the new BBC drama but I quickly realised it was shit.

SunnyAgain · 02/06/2019 08:10

I have a friend who consistently writes thank-you in her posts on FB. I wonder whether she thinks the vast majority of people write it incorrectly, or just doesn’t notice!

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 02/06/2019 08:11

Most grammar police are just snobs. And ill-educated at that !

Really? Can you give any evidence for their poor education, or are you just being a GF by commenting so ironically on other people's poor education, given the remainder of your post?

Jellycat1 · 02/06/2019 08:16

It's just lazy really. 'Different to' also annoys me intensely. I'm considering a prep school for my boys at the moment and am having to force myself to get past their homepage, which proudly declares that they are 'different to other schools'. Hmmm.

Jellycat1 · 02/06/2019 08:19

Also cannot stand seeing apostrophes everywhere except where they belong!

Bluerussian · 02/06/2019 08:23

Me too jellycart, greengrocer type stuff. I saw a sign in a local corner shop once, 'Lady's handbag's'.

TheInventorofToasterStreudel · 02/06/2019 08:26

I like it! I've moved around for work a lot, and I really enjoy the colloquialisms - although when I moved down here I became very confused for about 6 weeks when patients told me they'd been "Reaching all night!" (but for what?!)

Once I'd worked out they were "retching", things got easier!

Do love a semi colon though! I do get very irritated when people address me as "yourself" (eugh).

Messyisthenewtidy · 02/06/2019 08:28

The quirkiest thing about the lay / lie confusion is the the past simple of to lie is actually lay and as the past simple doubles up as the past subjunctive you have the wonderfully confusing song lyrics of:

If I just lay here would you lie with me and just forget the world?

BogglesGoggles · 02/06/2019 08:29

Autocorrect?

Aquilla · 02/06/2019 08:30

Those of us of a certain age weren't corrected at school. I was 18 before I realised 'then' and 'than' were different words with different spelling. And I got first in my high school English class ffs.

BIWI · 02/06/2019 08:40

Today and tomorrow used to be hyphenated (or were sometimes even separate words) but that changed a long time ago (around the 1930s, I think).

But 'thank you' is a different issue. The way most of us use the words is as a verb - 'thank you for the party'. However, it can also be a noun, in which case you hyphenate - 'I have sent my thank-yous for the party'. But very unusual/unlikely that we use it in that way!