To be angry about the Oritse Williams rape case?

[prettyinpink23x]

He's been found not guilty today by a Jury.

So many people on twitter are saying 'name and shame the woman, she's lied' 'she deserves a prison sentence'. This is infuriating! Do these people not realise that 'not guilty' does not equate with innocent and it doesn't mean she's lied?

Is it unreasonable for me to be angry about this?

As a victim of sexual assault which happened when I was 16. It isn’t that hard to prove when it’s happened. I got the “b*d” jailed for 6 years because I wasn’t lying and he hurt me. I’m sorry so many women want to claim rape when celebrity’s don’t want more than a cheap shag with them. If he raped her like she claimed there would have been enough evidence to convict him. She shouldn’t be named and shamed but he shouldn’t now have a load of women sitting on here saying it’s because of a lack of evidence. I believe he didn’t do it!

Because it was possible to prove it in your case, that means any time it isn’t the woman is lying? That’s a disgusting thing to say.

I really wish the now-infamous Reddit “Ask A Rapist” thread hadn’t been taken down because a lot of those posting here really need to read those accounts.

Seriously, what evidence do you think there would be? Did you read the other defendant’s testimony?

YABU What is the point of someone going to court, having a trial if you are just going to repeat the accusations and say you find them guilty anyway.

What's the point of the justice system then?

Do you apply this logic to other forms of crime?

By your logic how would someone ever prove themselves innocent of rape? You are inferring it is virtually almost impossible.

Also stats on false rape accusations how are they collated?

YNBU.

No, ruined like the guy that spent 2 years in prison for a rape he didn’t commit, and the girl was ultimately jailed for false accusation.

2 years in prison isn’t a ruined life. But we aren’t talking about people who are wrongly convicted. We’re talking about men who weren’t convicted at all. Found not guilty. Serve no time. And people say their lives are ruined.

Not that I am a fan of Jackson but he was hardly unaffected either.

“Affected” by a rape accusation isn’t “life ruined”. Come on now.

his name is toxic and protests follow him wherever he ends up

Yes, due to his own behaviour as evidenced in his conversations with friends. Not due to a rape accusation. The accusation only shone a torch on his appalling behaviour an attitude.

but the idea that the trial had zero impact on him is a bit daft

It’s a good thing no one said it had zero impact on him then, isn’t it?

Why should she be given anonymity when Ortise was not?

It isn’t that hard to prove when it’s happened.

Bollocks. Your ignorance is showing.

"The best way for innocent men to avoid rape charges (apart from not raping anyone) is to work their arses off to change rape culture" hear hear! Far far too many "good" men don't challenge misogyny, don't challenge rape culture and even support it laughing at "jokes" about rape, criticising & judging women and girls for how THEY dress and act, particularly wrt alcohol & drug use and DON'T criticise misogynistic rape defending boys and men.

Very very few of the men I know have NEVER been guilty of any of the above.

There's a shocking amount of misogynistic, rape culture supporting women too - as seen on this and sadly many other threads on mn. What makes it very slightly less bad is it tends to be "the usual suspects" making such comments.

We need MUCH better and more prolific education on consent including a persons ability to consent too.

Quite honestly from all I've read on this case I'm angry and saddened the jury returned a "not guilty" verdict but not shocked or surprised because there's far too many people who don't understand rape and consent serving on juries AND as judges (seriously some of the utterly disgusting victim blaming crap that is deemed acceptable in a summing up speech is horrifying) & even prosecutors. Too often the prosecution barely does their job!

Don't even get me started on what defence lawyers are allowed to get away with!!

"His career is over." Not because of this!

AllAboutMeAlways have you any experience of the justice system from a victims perspective? There have been several very high profile cases where it's blindingly obvious to anyone with half an ounce of sense that the accused were guilty receiving "not guilty" verdicts, where reading how the case was conducted there are the most appalling comments from supposed legal professionals, treatment of victims and decisions on evidence. It needs a serious overhaul!

SleepingSloth you need to stop with the very thinly veiled victim blaming which I've now reported you twice for. A victims actions are NEVER an excuse for them to be raped!

"The only people who are aided by the current system are rapists and misogynists." Damn straight!

"We need to make those accountable for investigating and prosecuting rape accountable" absolutely

We've entire police forces having victim blaming "anti rape" campaigns, refusing to take reports from victims, dismissing CHILD victims as "troublemakers" - hell even charging victims with wasting police time etc!

The system HAS to be changed RIGHT from the reporting point!

"There are many things that could be done and aren't." Totally agree - they're being done in other countries!

What's the point of the justice system then?

I think women have completely lost faith in the justice system. If more men were caught, prosecuted and convicted, it would be a hell of a lot easier to believe in the innocence of those that are found not guilty.

No, ruined like the guy that spent 2 years in prison for a rape he didn’t commit

And how often does that happen?

I have only ever heard of two miscarriage of justice cases in the UK where a man was wrongly convicted of rape. One of them was the one you mentioned and the other was actually a case of a stranger rape where the wrong person was caught and convicted.

People who think that Williams accuser is automatically 'a liar' because he was found not guilty are thick as shit.

That is all.

@Hithere12 Any rape victim that doesnt get justice is a travesty.Any man that gets convicted of rape who is innocent is a travesty.

As a mother of sons the attitude towards men on this thread is eye opening.

In this instance he was found not guilty.So we just have to accept that.

I use to be on the side of thinking people shouldn't be named until convicted.

That is until a few years ago I became friends with a lawyer for the CPS. Working on prosecution. I didn't realise how much never actually reaches court because they don't have enough evidence to present that's beyond reasonable doubt.

So I do think of a case gets to court there is plenty of evidence the accused is guilty.

You might be fine with this pitifully low conviction rate, but society shouldn't be.

I'm not 'fine' with it at all. I just don't see what can be done. How on earth would anyone be okay with men guilty of rape not being convicted and put in prison.

“Do these people not realise that 'not guilty' does not equate with innocent and it doesn't mean she's lied?“

It literally does mean he has been found innocent and is completely vindicated.

Any accused is deemed as innocent unless proven guilty. When a verdict of not guilty is handed down, it reaffirms innocence.

I have no view on whether the woman should now be named.

@MNHQ

Please can you let me know why an earlier post of mine was deleted. Thank you.

Sorry pressed send too soon ....

But that doesn't mean I think he's guilty. Obviously in the eyes of 12 people there was enough doubt that the sex wasn't consensual.

In my case I knew that would exist. So I never reported it.

Many people would remain ever suspicious of him and you get the ubiquitous hard-of-thinking 'there's no smoke without fire' brigade who automatically assume that he must have been guilty.

Tbh I can actually kind of understand this, at least from a woman's point of view.

Now I'm sure being falsely accused of rape must be horrendous especially if you couldn't prove the allegation was malicious.

But at the end of the day we all have to look after ourselves. Women are constantly told that we need to keep ourselves safe and not put ourselves in danger. We are constantly blamed if someone does assault us and told over and over how we should have dome things differently. And quite frankly, being alone with or even around someone who has been accused of rape before could easily be viewed as putting ourselves in a risky situation. It could also be used as another way of victim blaming us if the allegations did turn out to be true and he goes on to assault us, e.g 'you knew he had been accused before, why did you put yourself in that situation?'.

So a man who was accused of rape who finds that women avoid being alone with him just in case verses a woman who decides to ignore the rape accusation and take the risk of being alone with him even though he might have raped someone. If the worst should happen, then who will come out worse in either of those situations?.

I don't care what anyone thinks of me. I am not putting myself in danger just because someone might be pissed off or have their feelings hurt.

There should only be legal repercussions when it is beyond reasonable doubt the accuser has lied

It literally does mean he has been found innocent and is completely vindicated.

In reality it means that there was not enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he did not have reasonable belief in her consent when he penetrated her.

But yes, technically it does mean he is innocent.

Given that Ched Evans was eventually acquitted even when what he himself described in court could not have possibly ever been reasonable belief in consent, I'm not surprised Williams or anyone else is cleared of rape tbh.

No one here is saying that this one individual should be treated as guilty when they are not. We are talking about people who believe not guilty means that the accuser lied, and about the disastrous system as a whole.

Cut it out with the “mum to boys” shit. I have two boys and I will damn well raise them to understand that it’s enthusiastic consent to all aspects of every sexual encounter, or nothing.

There’s all this talk of false accusations - how often do you think women are making accusations against men that
a) they haven’t had sex with
b) have treated them with respect
c) have operated on an enthusiastic consent basis
d) do not coerce or push a woman’s boundaries
?

I’m sure it must happen on very rare occasions that men who do these things are accused, but i have no doubt it’s beyond rare.

Here’s a Swiftian Modest Proposal for you - men must now prove that they had enthusiastic consent for all aspects of a sexual encounter if they’re accused of rape.

Would never happen of course, and would be problematic, but so is the system we have now. So many sexual encounters involve some aspect of coercion and boundary pushing from men - do you think that would still be the case under this system?

When I was sexually assaulted by the third sexual partner in a row, I got angry and I told him exactly what he had done. You’d expect shock, horror or regret - not a laugh and a shrug with “I’ve done worse”. He knew I could do nothing. I knew it too.

Good luck to you reporting a rape if:

• you ever flirted with your rapist via text, email, phone
• you ever initiated phone calls or messages
• you told people you found him attractive
• you have previously consented to sex with this person
• you’re in a relationship with this person
• you’ve had a sexual relationship in the past that wasn’t 100% “vanilla”
• you use recreational drugs or frequently drink alcohol
• you have an internet history that includes searches for porn, anything BDSM / role play based, sex toys, bondage etc
• your underwear drawer contains a significant proportion of lace pants

I could go on.

"Should have said 90+% of accused men are guilty. "

Well that's just unknowable

Jamien 'I'm going to wear a beanie, sunglasses and scarf to protect my identity' Nagadhana does not come off much better in his testimony.
Oh, my oafish mate is copping off with that drunk girl...she doesn't look like she's enjoying it much. I know, I'll make it into a threesome, far less cringey and awkaward [facepalm]
Good Lord. And 8 women bought that story?

As for those deriding the suggestion that it may as well be legal...

The very (thankfully) rare stranger rapes where someone is attacked in the street and raped with CCTV evidence and witnesses, that should be possible to get a conviction.

But two adults alone in a room, who know each other, who may have just been on their first or 100th date or be married, or even who just met in a bar... they can basically do whatever the fuck they want to us, and they know it, with impunity. If you don’t believe that, you’re not paying attention.

Even if they slit our throats and kill us during sex, they can get a manslaughter conviction and a six year sentence
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/man-kills-woman-sadomasochistic-sex-stabbing-neck-jail-jason-gaskell-laura-huteson-sheffield-a8486421.html