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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be angry about the Oritse Williams rape case?

678 replies

prettyinpink23x · 28/05/2019 14:48

He's been found not guilty today by a Jury.

So many people on twitter are saying 'name and shame the woman, she's lied' 'she deserves a prison sentence'. This is infuriating! Do these people not realise that 'not guilty' does not equate with innocent and it doesn't mean she's lied?

Is it unreasonable for me to be angry about this?

OP posts:
herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 10:08

AravisQueenOfArchenland

That would actually incentivise false accusations. If you knew a person was going to be punished, guilty or innocent, and you were a liar, you’d lie, wouldn’t you? It’s also unjust on a basic level.

NewarkShark · 29/05/2019 10:09

It’s “satisfied so that you are sure” that is said to juries now, not beyond reasonable doubt.

herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 10:11

NewarkShark

Really? I had no idea. Well, it’s fair to say “sure” is a high standard. Unfortunately, rape cases are often inherently uncertain.

LuvSmallDogs · 29/05/2019 10:13

There's almost no point going to the police if you are raped or assaulted, I certainly didn't and believe 100% I made the right choice for myself. Victims get treated like lying trollops and then IF the case goes to court and he is found "not guilty" (harhar) then you get to read newspapers/social media (even if it's just local) calling for you to be tarred and feathered. Hell, if he's found guilty amateur detectives will be finding reasons for it to be your fault.

A justice system made largely for men by men fails women and children at every turn.

Deathgrip · 29/05/2019 10:19

It’s hard for me to reconcile “zombified” and “spaced out” with a memory accurate enough to describe what happened in the room. I could be wrong, but there is definitely doubt

But the other defendant admitted to touching her sexually without getting consent because he didn’t think she was enjoying the sex she was already having (and he thought the solution to this was more sexual contact he didn’t know she wanted rather than, y’know, saying “hey mate, I’m not sure she’s really in a fit state for this”).

Assuming he’s presented his version of events in the best possible light, as defendants tend to do, I’m baffled.

herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 10:20

Deathgrip

Fair enough, then. Verdict could easily be dodgy. I’ll have another look.

AravisQueenOfArchenland · 29/05/2019 10:21

Would it though? Wer'e so worried about false accusations, ruining a blokes reputation etc, but how many accusations are actually false? Most women I know who've been raped, have only told friends and family, and wouldn't want it to be common knowledge. 1 in 4 women say they've been raped. A rape is reported every seven minutes in the UK. But if we look at 100 women we know, we'd assume most of them has never had to deal with it, when more like 25 are living in silent pain and sometimes shame.

Maybe if anyone gets accused x amount of times, (5?), they then have to start some sort of programme/training course?

I don't know what the solution is, but it seems odd we focus so much on helping women overcome rape, and not so much on stopping men from raping in the first place? How we stop them from thinking they're entitled to use anyones body as they please? There has to be some way to change that mindset?

herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 10:24

But the other defendant admitted to touching her sexually without getting consent because he didn’t think she was enjoying the sex she was already having (and he thought the solution to this was more sexual contact he didn’t know she wanted rather than, y’know, saying “hey mate, I’m not sure she’s really in a fit state for this”).

I read a bit more on this, and the trouble is, you can be not enjoying sex and still consenting to it. I don’t know enough about the case to know whether there was enough evidence to be “sure”, but at the moment it doesn’t make me sure.

Dana28 · 29/05/2019 10:25

Apparentlt in her police interview she said she had been swearing at and telling the accused to stop, whereas in court she said she lay like a dead body
Contradictory statements about something so fundamental would damage credibility

NewarkShark · 29/05/2019 10:27

herculepoirot I don’t practise criminal law any more but it was that when I used to do it so I think it’s still the same!

As for uncertainty, I agree totally and sadly as I said upthread I don’t think the level of convictions for rape are going to change without us infringing on innocent till proven guilty.

herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 10:28

As for uncertainty, I agree totally and sadly as I said upthread I don’t think the level of convictions for rape are going to change without us infringing on innocent till proven guilty.

Indeed. And we can’t do that. I wouldn’t sit on a jury knowing I only had to think guilt probable.

Firstimpressionsofearth · 29/05/2019 10:34

it makes you wonder if we women are in a perpetual state of of consent by just existing.

That sound like the reality of it. Just in this case a man digitally penetrated a woman with no consent and it wasn't seen as a crime.

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 29/05/2019 10:38

Also, it’s possible people on jury service need more training before they serve. “Beyond reasonable doubt” - what does it actually mean? If people are taking it to mean “beyond a shadow of a doubt”, that’s possibly where all these dodgy acquittals are coming from. More modelling of cases beforehand?

My understanding is that all jurors are thoroughly briefed by a court clerk and watch a film explaining the court process and your role as a juror and even during the trial the judge can stop and direct / instruct you. You are not just lobbed into the courtroom upon arrival.

herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 10:39

PanGalaticGargleBlaster

True.

CaptSkippy · 29/05/2019 10:40

No one has perfect recall, particularly not of traumatic events that happened years before a trial starts.

I don't understand why (female) rape victims are expected to operate with computer precision with regards to their memories, when study after study proofs that time and the number of times a memory is recalled changes it. That's why a small herring, a fisherman caught, turns into a tiger shark years down the line.

On that basis rape (at least of women and girls) is not a crime at all.

Deathgrip · 29/05/2019 10:40

I read a bit more on this, and the trouble is, you can be not enjoying sex and still consenting to it. I don’t know enough about the case to know whether there was enough evidence to be “sure”, but at the moment it doesn’t make me sure.

Of course you can. I didn’t say you couldn’t. I’m saying his testimony is concerning, not only from a witness perspective but as a defendant. His testimony states that he sexually assaulted her - he did not seek or get consent to touch her genitals but did so anyway. I’m trying to fathom how a man admits this in court, uses the fact that she’s discussed having a prior adventurous sex life as a mitigating factor, and that’s accepted. If anyone knows, I’d be very interested to know.

Yep, traumatised victims often have inconsistent accounts, especially with the weight of social expectations and the accepted victim script - until we stop expecting victims to behave perfectly, and only accept that someone is a victim if they physically fought someone off even when intoxicated, this will continue to be an issue.

One of the stories from that Reddit thread discussed earlier always sticks with me - in it the guy said that he raped numerous women as a young man, that the women who consented once he started having sex with them were “boring” sexual encounters, and the ones who “squirmed” were the best but hardly any of them ever said no. Some of them even contacted him afterwards being friendly, probably blaming themselves for what happened or in denial.

He used their shock and self-blame to his advantage, to continue raping women and knew that those women who went willingly to his apartment would have no recourse whatsoever. It was that calculated, and he was right.

Deathgrip · 29/05/2019 10:41

Just in this case a man digitally penetrated a woman with no consent and it wasn't seen as a crime
And admitted to it. And tried to make out that this was a reasonable response to seeing what could have been a non-consensual sexual encounter, and this was accepted.

herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 10:49

Death

Yes, his testimony sounds pretty damning. I suppose it might be the case that she saw him approach, he touched her on the legs etc., and then touched her sexually and at no point did she do anything other than carry on what she was doing. The test is a “reasonable belief in consent”. The possibility that she saw exactly what he was up to and didn’t object is relevant.

Obviously if she had no idea he was going to touch her sexually, that can’t be seen as a reasonable belief.

herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 11:25

Yep, traumatised victims often have inconsistent accounts, especially with the weight of social expectations and the accepted victim script - until we stop expecting victims to behave perfectly, and only accept that someone is a victim if they physically fought someone off even when intoxicated, this will continue to be an issue.

Unfortunately, inconsistency in testimony when you are the only witness is the definition of doubt. It’s horrible, but I can’t see a way round it.

BigRedLondonBus · 29/05/2019 11:39

Hmm the thing is people will always see a way to blame the victim, “she want back to his hotel so she must have been up for it” that is a very common atttidue. I remember about 10 years ago now being sexually assaulted by a group of men on holiday when my sister and friend left me on my own, when I told them what happened the next day my sister said “dress like a whore, get treated like one!” Because I was wearing a short skirt. I think this is the attitude that most people have irl unfortunately. I don’t know what I believe in this case, as I wasn’t there, I’m surprised after reading that he got not guilty. what happened to the girls friend, it said 2 of them went back?

Firstimpressionsofearth · 29/05/2019 11:42

Yes, his testimony sounds pretty damning. I suppose it might be the case that she saw him approach, he touched her on the legs etc., and then touched her sexually and at no point did she do anything other than carry on what she was doing. The test is a “reasonable belief in consent”. The possibility that she saw exactly what he was up to and didn’t object is relevant.

This is exactly why it should be enthusiastic consent. Silence should not be accepted as consent.

Firstimpressionsofearth · 29/05/2019 11:46

it said 2 of them went back?

2 went back. The boys wanted sex the girls or girl depending on who you believe didn't want sex so left. One girl the accuser returned for her phone or sex, again depending on who you believe. The "sex" took place when she returned alone.

Deathgrip · 29/05/2019 11:48

I don’t see how you can have a reasonable belief in consent when there’s been no discussion, no initiation from them, they’re sexually involved at that moment with someone else... and not stopping them is not consent, given that the propensity for victims to freeze or feel that resisting may make matters worse, and the fact that she was heavily intoxicated.

The way around it in many cases is not to make women feel they have to claim they resisted and fought back in order to legitimise their report. Knowing that freezing is a legitimate response to trauma which will not undermine your case would go a long way to improving this issue. Ensuring that juries understand the mental effects of such trauma and how this effects recall.

There were other witnesses - hotel staff that called her zombified, and who checked on her afterwards (how often do hotel staff check on guests as they leave out of concern?). The fact that she didn’t immediately tell strangers that she had just been raped was used against her, FFS, as was footage of her interactions with him before she claimed anything bad had happened. This shows that the system has a fundamental lack of understanding of how sexual assault works and how victims respond to trauma in reality.

Plus there was also a witness who witnessed the sex, got involved in the sex despite having no consent, who I can’t see can claim he had reasonable belief of consent (someone talking about orgies earlier in the evening is not consent) and who still was cleared.

herculepoirot2 · 29/05/2019 12:14

This is exactly why it should be enthusiastic consent. Silence should not be accepted as consent.

A trial, though, is a measure of whether our actual laws have been broken.

Deathgrip · 29/05/2019 12:20

Who’s saying it’s not? There have been multiple people asking how things could be changed, that’s obviously what that comment addresses.

In reality I don’t think it would help, because then the testimony becomes “she said yes” even if she didn’t. I am however alarmed that a man can go into a court and give that testimony knowing that what he confessed to doing wouldn’t be enough for a conviction.

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