To be enraged by a photograph of a Sherpa picking up litter from Mount Everest

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I know there are bigger problems to get angry about but I've seen this today and it's infuriated me.

Going up Mount Everest is a privilege available to very few people and they can't respect it enough to take their litter with them. Bloody people

The sherpas are paid per kilo of litter that they bring back. Visiting climbers are also encouraged to participate.

There is a permit system in operation already, but it's very 'light touch' and doesn't ask for much in the way of climbing experience. Consequently you can have cash rich and experience poor groups of climbers who have pad through the nose to go up, but who don't have much track record of altitude climbing. There are stories of climbers not knowing how to use ice axes properly, or attach crampons.

Everest is not the most technically challenging climb, but the altitude is - literally - the killer. As soon as you enter the death zone you are on a countdown - which is why delays in attempting the summit are so dangerous because you still need to get down again. The 1996 tragedy was significantly worsened by climbers attempting to summit later in the day than they should. There are also bottlenecks at key crossing places such as the Hillary Step and that will only be exacerbated by inexperienced climbers.

The woman who called for help and who was left to die was Francys Arsentiev. She'd summited, late on, without using oxygen and then become separated from her husband (her climbing partner) on the way down. Due to exhaustion they had to stop and spent overnight in the death zone. A climbing team found her and managed to get her part way down by giving her some of their oxygen, but they also ran out and were too exhausted to move her any further. and were forced to leave her. Another team found her the next day when they were on their way to the summit, still alive. They also tried to help her but she was so far gone and could not move and there was no way that they could have carried her. It's worth noting that this team actually called off their summit attempt because they stayed to help her and when it became apparent that they could do nothing for her, they went back to the camp.

Climbing at altitude is exhausting. Rescuing people when you are in the death zone and you are literally dying on your feet every hour that you are there, is not as easy as dragging them with you. It goes with the territory that if you put yourself in harm's way, then you accept that whilst people will help if they can, they will not - and should not - endanger their own lives to do so. Just one more reason why inexperienced climbers should not be allowed up.

Currently watching the film Everest.

ClownTent absolutely.
🤝

Saw Photos of Everest bodies on Facebook
They are so well preserved, one of them,
Green boots had become a landmark.

It’s a calling I’ll never understand but I find it fascinating.

That’s true ellobrian but it’s still not exactly the volume that makes you think people need a decision plan in case Dave from accountants asks them for sponsorship. It’s not exactly the London marathon is it?

I feel suspicious of the Sherpas making huge amounts of money and being so happy to work because of their natural love of the mountain. That narrative is way to close to the simplistic racist stereotyping that ignores economic and cultural contexts.

The sherpas went on strike about five years ago after a large group were killed whilst working overnight to prepare the route for their sleeping Western counterparts. Crossing the ice so many times more than the western climbers during every trip makes their climb so dangerous their superior skills can’t reliably save them.

The last one to get top billing was Tenzing who climbed with Hilary. Now they are just the replaceable background staff, their strike was for ordinary reasons - pay and conditions.

An American at the time, pissed off that he had paid and couldn’t climb said,

“There’s no way you can talk to their owners? If this was one of your Sherpas, you could have them removed from the mountain.”

He saw them as some kind of zero hours contract slaves. Later he said they were terrorists holding Americans hostage.

Like the rubbish the whole strike episode leaves deeply uncomfortable questions trailing in its wake.

Ferret - completely agree. The Western outfits want to see your climbing journal before they'll even consider taking you. They want to see Alpinism, climbing in Patagonia and Scottish winter, not an ascent of Mont Blanc. One even has a statement on their website - Aconcagua is not enough experience (it's very high but it's just a trekking peak). The Nepalese just want your $25,000. And the base pay to summit bonus ratio is lower with these firms, so the Sherpas gain a lot more for getting you to the top than with someone like Adventure Consultants, or RMI - even if you are in no fit state to do so. Conversely, the Sherpa I know told me that he was looking for someone mentally strong as well as physically. Not just to get to the top, but to deal with giving up. He said - I need to know that if I have to tell you to turn around and descend 20m from the summit because you are ill or it's unsafe, then you'll do it.

Climbing and trekking is a massive income generator in Nepal, but the Everest region is a honeypot. I did EBC over Xmas and NY when it was really quiet (and it's honestly the most beautiful place I have ever seen) but I'd hate to go at the height of the trekking season. Some guides are attempting to open up quieter areas like the Mustang, which would help ease the pressure on the Sagamartha park and Pokhara and bring much needed money to poorer areas. If that could be done to include climbing, then people who shouldn't even be up Everest could get their mountain fix on quieter, lower areas, without putting their lives, and those of others, at risk.

Interesting thread.
I knew a right knobber who used to ‘do Everest’ every few years when his wife threw him out. He detoxed up the mountain, patronised the Sherpas and promised to send them money after the summit, I don’t know if he did really climb it to the summit or send money (he lied a lot) but his wife took him back and the house was covered with blown up framed pics of him posing up the mountains.
Everyone thinks he’s amazing for doing this, and it’s actually because he was/is unhinged, very wealthy and wanted to look like a great adventurer.

I really agree with your post Mardy. For example Lhakpa Tenzing, has summitted 21 times! Far far in excess of any other climber. Does anyone know of him? He should be hailed as one of the greatest adventurers of our time surely?

Also, I was quite surprised in the Storyville K2 documentary (and the total loss
Of life’s in the 2014 serac collapse) that Sherpa/ ice doctors spend a huge amount of time putting up ropes for the climbers, and this includes the professionals as well as the bucket list inexperienced climbers. So basically their summit is not only a huge amount of teamwork for which they take individual credit, but would they even be achieving this without someone else constantly going ahead setting up for them? It’s an interesting situation.

Yeah 21 times and relegated to behind the scenes staff. It’s very uncomfortable.

Its the less well paid people who have the job of laying out the system of ladders to get all the rich westerners across the crevasses in the ever sifting ice floe that worry me most...that and the fact they are apparently importing a load of B&Q ladders fro Scotland every year to do the job.

The actual hard work for the climbers seems to be simply existing in the death zone without collapsing. Why don't they just set up the same conditions in an oxygen chamber and people can dare each other over how long to stay in a depleted atmosphere till they kill themselves that way?

My husband is no mountaineer (not outdoorsy person) but he climbed this a while ago in his youth
www.explore-share.com/blog/mount-kazbek-climb-facts-information-routes-climate-difficulty-equipment-cost/

Doctors think he's sporty person because he passes health and fitness tests with flying colours, he's pretty blessed with strong respiratory and circulation system and find my pathetic lack of fitness puzzling. But near 5km snowy summit (height of only Everest base camp) he said he found every step was expended effort, needed big intake of breath. It was steep and required pick axe.

So people who manage to climb beyond base camp must be extremely physically fit already. You could be so proud of climbing different mountains without other people in the way.

Like Alex says in free solo... anyone can have a nice life at home with friends and family. That’s easy. Nothing exception comes from people staying home.

Nothing exceptional comes from climbing Everest.

Like Alex says in free solo... anyone can have a nice life at home with friends and family

I don't think that is true and it suggests a very privileged background and mind set. Having experienced truly dreadful personal tragedy,. managing to pull together a nice home life for my children with friends and family is a tremendous achievement (and I speak as someone who has represented their country in a sport in the past). I think in many cases, leaving the family behind to go on a solo adventure is taking the easier option.

What's wrong with having just a nice life why must they do something exceptional at all costs even if it damages other people and the environment?
why take things to extremes, why the highest mountain risking your health to do so?
is it because you're so important that nothing but the best the greatest the highest the most difficult is fitting for you?

It might make them exceptionally egotistical or selfish but not sure that's something to aspire to.

Exactly what AnAC12UCOinanOCG said.

In fact I think it's pretty offensive to suggest that having a nice life of family and home is either easy or to be looked down on as enough. That's the epitome of privilege talking there.

Nothing exception comes from people staying home

The battle-cry of the blinkered and selfish, who can smugly parrot this safe in the knowledge that the choice of others to stay home is precisely what enables them to go off and climb mountains.

Sadly these people lack the self-awareness to acknowledge that their boots, clothing and equipment were created by people who stay at home and work in factories. That their Sherpas are only climbing Everest to earn the money to support their communities and families - who are at home. That the doctors and nurses who staff the hospitals in Kathmandu are the people who stayed home and went to medical school and university. That the climber's families and partners are the ones keeping homes running, kids fed and bills paid whilst they are sitting at base camp.

Nothing exceptional happens from staying home...What a revoltingly spoiled and privileged little bubble these people choose to inhabit.

Thank you so much to chocos and all you other climbers who have made this such an informative and interesting read. And I'll follow all the links you've provided, too.

Thanks again everyone

That their Sherpas are only climbing Everest to earn the money to support their communities and families - who are at home. That the doctors and nurses who staff the hospitals in Kathmandu are the people who stayed home and went to medical school and university. That the climber's families and partners are the ones keeping homes running, kids fed and bills paid whilst they are sitting at base camp

Do agree that they tend to be very underappreciated by climbers. Sherpas get paid a lot though, compared to locals and probably would not appreciate being put out of work by further restrictions. Sherpas also tend to operate the cheaper climbing companies, which tend to have a higher fatality rate for whatever reason. There needs to be better regulation, for sure, but the local economy would collapse with too much restriction. I do wish more people would be satisfied with trekking the Himalayas, which is risky enough imo

Interestingly, Sherpas really are so well adapted to the conditions. They rarely die in the death zone, they usually die around base camp or the icefall by falls or avalanches. They are training Tibetans to assist on the Chinese side of Everest, but they are still not up to that level, even though they have the same evolutionary adaptations to thrive at that height. But Pakistan’s HAP for K2 don’t get nearly the kind of attention or plaudits, or most importantly, money that the Nepalese Sherpas get.

Fascinating thread.

I'm genuinely unsure which attitude is more colonial; that rich westerners pay Sherpas to get them up the mountain, or us saying that the Sherpas shouldn't have every right to choose how they wish to make their living, even if it's dangerous. I think probably the latter...

I think it's sad that Sherpas feel they have to risk their life in order to make a decent living. But then someone upthread said something along the lines that it's a calling for them and they'd climb whether they got paid or not, if I remember correctly. Difficult to know what the answer is.

It's a tough one. But, those Sherpas who don't have anything to do with climbing are absolutely dirt poor. I don't know how they'd make a living (other than hand to mouth) if the climbing and trekking industry didn't exist. There are only about a thousand "climbing Sherpas" who do the 8000m peaks, and they do one a year, because the climbing window is so short. The rest of the time they work in the trekking season (October to March) and take the summer/monsoon off or go to Kathmandu.
Others choose not to do high altitude and are porters (not just for trekkers/climbers - there are no roads so we encountered porters carrying everything from eggs to flat pack wardrobes to schoolbooks on their backs. Some are pacer Sherpas - we had three on the way to EBC - they walk with trekking groups so they don't go too fast and get HACE or HAPE. Some are trek leaders - organising accommodation and transport to the trailheads. They are also qualified in mountain first aid and keep a close eye to make sure nobody is struggling with altitude sickness - they make sure everyone does the Lake Louise test every day and also carry O2. Some are tea-house owners, where you stay. They are paid a basic decent wage and then each group will tip - probably about £400 per exped.
Another fact I found out is that the climbing industry helps subsidise the poorer Sherpas. We got fogged in at Kathmandu and the twin otter planes were grounded, but we were able to pay extra to get a helicopter to the trailhead. We each paid £200 and the tour operator paid £200. This helps pay for locals to get a helicopter to Kathmandu for hospital treatment etc. The helivac choppers also don't travel empty - if they are requested from Kathmandu or Lukla to Medevac a climber out, there is a supplies store at Kathmandu and Lukla which will load up food, medical supplies, cooking oil, kerosene, etc to drop off on the way.

I'm too lazy to find the post but can I thank whoever recommended Into Thin Air by Jon Krakauer? I read it today and it was a fascinating read. The author touches on most of the points raised in this thread including the litter issue, the exploitation of Sherpas, the commercialisation of the mountain, and the ego behind many climbers' drives to reach the summit. He has his opinions but does a good job of giving multiple sides of the argument.

Interestingly he suggested one solution to many of the problems - banning the use of supplemental oxygen on Everest. It would eliminate the dozens of used canisters each climber dumps on the mountain and would vastly reduce the numbers attempting or succeeding in reaching the summit. But then he acknowledges that it would take a lot of money from poor countries and also the livelihoods of Sherpas.

Anyway, just wanted to second the recommendation.