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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think why not just fucking drag the bastard to court?

32 replies

DobbysLeftSock · 09/05/2019 20:17

Just read this in bbc news. The judge had to go to the peison because the accused refused to leave his cell.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48214055

What?! He is accused of multiple sex offences, kidnapping... how can he be allowed to just sit there and refuse to move?

OP posts:
Original poster
DobbysLeftSock · 09/05/2019 20:17

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48214055

OP posts:
SconNotScone · 09/05/2019 20:22

On the face of it, I completely agree, and my instinctive response is similar to yours - like for gods sake, just drag him there!

But then when I properly think about it, I just can’t see how that would work. Ok, so they drag him out of his cell and bundle him into the van. They manage to get him to court. They drag him into the court room, where he is potentially fighting against those in charge of transporting/guarding him. He’d possibly be yelling, talking over people, being generally verbally disruptive. They try and force him down into his seat. He stands up. They force him down. He stands up. They force him down. He stands up. And on and on and on. By which point, the magistrate would probably call an end to the proceedings due to the disruption and inability to address him and the courtroom. He’d be bundled back into the van and back to his cell. And they try the whole process again the next day. And maybe the next day. And so on.

I guess they would argue that it is saving money to just get it over and done with by visiting the prison. And also that they are minimising the risk of injury to staff responsible for the prison-court transfers and security. It’s a bit of a shit situation all round really.

Original poster
DobbysLeftSock · 09/05/2019 20:26

It just made me think - surely he cant be the first person to not want to go to the court room? How can the justice system function if prisoners refuse to attend their trial?

OP posts:
MitziK · 09/05/2019 20:31

It's probably quite hard to present your defence if you refuse to leave your cell. I'd be inclined to say 'Fine. No defence offered. Off you go, jury'.

The Law, however, doesn't work like that.

Original poster
DobbysLeftSock · 09/05/2019 20:41

I've always thought how terribly brutal and medieval those chains they have people wear in American prisons & courts are - now I'm thinking maybe there's some merit to them after all!

OP posts:
Fatted · 09/05/2019 20:42

It happens all the time. It's just that it usually happens in cases that the national press aren't interested in.

Ginkypig · 09/05/2019 20:42

It's a choice and if a defendant refuses to appear then the trial happens without you (your lawyer obviously has to appear) and the outcome occurs without you and you be informed of the ruling.

Original poster
DobbysLeftSock · 09/05/2019 20:46

Interesting fatted - so what happens? Do they have a lawyer in court and they just don't come?

OP posts:
Original poster
DobbysLeftSock · 09/05/2019 20:48

Ah sorry Ginky, my phone had a bit of a moment then, I didn't see your message.

Does it impact the trial? Can they still plead not guilty even if they wont attend?

OP posts:
GabsAlot · 09/05/2019 20:50

trial by abscense or something isnt it

Asta19 · 09/05/2019 20:55

Yes this would never usually happen. I’ve worked in Courts a lot and often had trials and sentencing in absence. There must have been a very specific reason in this case.

John470322 · 09/05/2019 20:56

I am usually all for the accused having rights. This accused person has the right to appear in court, if he chooses not to appear then hold the case without him.

If he is found guilty and sentenced because he chose not to offer any defence then that is his choice. I am trying not to say let the rapist rot in jail

RSAcre · 09/05/2019 22:47

I've always thought how terribly brutal and medieval those chains they have people wear in American prisons & courts are - now I'm thinking maybe there's some merit to them after all!

Absolutely right, @Dobby'sLeftSock - ONE case of a recalcitrant prisoner hits the newspapers, & we can all happily change our minds about the more brutal and medieval aspects of the justice system.
Hurrah!

ZippyBungleandGeorge · 10/05/2019 00:10

But it actually harms no one but the defendant, him not appearing in court, or will go ahead in his absence, victims and witnesses don't have to see him either, it can delay things if they are expected and then refuse. It's likely to not go in his favour with a jury or a judge at it's seen as not taking responsibility/having up to consequences. It does happen all the time and I've never known a judge to do this. Dragging him there will change nothing, have the trial and sentence in his absence, he had the right to appear he chose not to.

julensaor · 10/05/2019 01:27

maybe it would make an insanity plea easier? or surprise him, that any physical refusal really means nothing, it is going to be done no matter what. It's like telling a toddler no.

Gingernaut · 10/05/2019 01:51

It wasn't as if he needed to attend court.

As he's remanded in Belmarsh, a high security prison, all he needed to do is walk to the video link room.

He didn't even do that.

Graphista · 10/05/2019 02:15

I've just seen this on BBC news. I agree forcing him to court where he'd then likely be belligerent and disruptive is pointless but I don't see why he can't be tried in absentia - his choice not to be present! Tough shit if that goes against him I say.

UptobedNOW · 10/05/2019 02:50

This is from @BarristerSecret on Twitter; "It’s a first appearance at the magistrates’ court. Because of the serious nature of the alleged offences, they are then “sent” to the Crown Court for a hearing at a later date.
The law says that cases can only be “sent” if the defendant is present in court."

"In this case, it looks like a novel means for the judge to ensure that the case progresses, with or without the defendant’s cooperation."

Original poster
DobbysLeftSock · 10/05/2019 07:48

RSAcre sorry the tongue in cheek tone i had intended clearly didn't come across well there! I'm not actually advocating for a return to shackles. Just, you know, tempted... 😉

Anyway, clearly its more standard than the article made it out to be and may even speed the case along, so ho hum. Lets hope he gets a really, really fucking long sentence so he can enjoy his cell at his leisure.

OP posts:
Boom45 · 10/05/2019 07:55

As with most discussions about prisons and prisoners it's worth remembering that the poor sods that have to do the "dragging" to court of prisoners are prison officers. A judge turning up at a cell seems like a more sensible and possibly safer option when the accussed absolutely needs to appear in front of a judge.

x2boys · 10/05/2019 08:32

Maybe it was safer? If you drag him to court and he gets violent on the way ,in court etc ,there will.only be the prison officers escorting him that can deal with it if he's in prison there will be more staff to deal with any escalating behaviours?

kalopali · 10/05/2019 08:33

Absolutely ridiculous. Soften the cunt up for ten mins in his cell with batons then drag him off to court.

GummyGoddess · 10/05/2019 08:55

Don't see why they couldn't drag him to a room and just video link to the court. Could mute him if he makes a noise and it's his choice whether he pays attention.

Andromeida59 · 10/05/2019 09:33

In my experience, if the defendant doesn't show up the case is adjourned. If a witness doesn't turn up, the case is often dismissed. I've seen it too many times.

IAmTheChosenOne · 10/05/2019 10:08

@UpToBedNow - I would assume this is why the judge/magistrae is visiting the bloke in prison.

There is no legal obligation to attend court or to enter a plea or to give evidence.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/joseph-mccann-rape-charge-belmarsh-prison-court-hearing-a8906596.html

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