To wonder why there's such a focus on Caster Semenya, when trans athletes like Rachel McKinnon are taking women's medals and no-one bats an eyelid?

[Huskylover1]

It's making my blood boil. And when I say "taking" women's medals, I actually mean stealing. Or cheating their way to the top.

Being intersex (XY chromosomes, female genitalia)

This has never been confirmed by Caster. We don’t know the reason. Maybe if we did, there would be more understanding. However, in the ruling, it specifies only athletes with 46 XY DSD, where the individual has XY chromosomes. So XY chromosomes confirmed (Male sex) No mention of female genitalia but then no mention of undescended testes either. In many a televised interview, Caster has answered that when growing up, didn’t want to play with the girls and ‘lived’ and acted like a boy. What is Caster trying to hide?

Is CS actually better off as identifying as a transwoman? Am I right in thinking that if she were a fully bepenised individual socialised male but identifying as female she’d actually have more of a right to compete in female sports?

But Caster ISN'T a man. Not 'technically' or any other way. Who decides that the testing required to determine someone's chromosomes or internal organs defines whether someone is a man or a woman, rather than the presence of a vulva?

Caster’s underlying diagnosis has never been revealed, it’s not known which DSD she has. However, the IAAF ruling has clarified that DSD athletes who are XY need to comply with the testosterone rules and those who are DSD XX don’t. This makes it clear that CS is DSD XY with internal testes.

A testosterone level of 5 is still very high for a woman.

The reporting of this has been disingenuous and misleading. Caster has been described as an unusual biological woman who happens to have abnormally high (impossibly high for a woman) level of testosterone. Whereas the IAAF ruling confirms that, as an individual with a DSD who is XY with internal testes she is biological male and her testosterone production and levels reflect that.

But Caster ISN'T a man. Not 'technically' or any other way
CS is a male person with an intersex condition.

I just think Trans should have their own category.

I am a 5 ft 1 female. DH is 6 ft 3, size 50 inch chest, size 12 feet....absolutely huge. Even if he took meds to lower his testosterone, he would always beat me at any sport going.

I feel so sorry for female athletes having to deal with this shite.

Just to add that the internal testes hasn’t been confirmed but they are a typical feature of many DSD XY individuals. And that testosterone could not come from anywhere else!

So XY chromosomes confirmed (Male sex) No mention of female genitalia but then no mention of undescended testes either

You might want to read about intersex individuals to get a better underatanding. Frankly, just saying that he's a man because he liked to play with boys and not girls is ignorant.

I'd expect more from MN posters.

As far as I know CS's diagnosis has never been made public.

It is thought she is intersex and that she has both male and female genitalia to an extent. She is not necessarily just XY - if she were she would be a man. It may be she is XXY or some other form.

Yes is not a transwoman. She is being singled out and it is very unfair.

She may have advantages from the testesterone. Whilst mine isn't that high, I am tall with PCOS so am strong, more muscly and probably would have advantages over other women athletes. That is the basis for sport - larger muscly women are not usually petite gymnasts and there are probably not many lean short women in weight lifting.

Transwomen are different and I do feel they should compete in the male events, although perhaps they could compete against the women if they were medicated to bring them to a fair level.

I do not have anything against CS having treatment to reduce testosterone for 6 months in order to compete, the fact the ruling is only applicable to three events which are the distances she would do is silly - bring it in across the board or not at all.

Frankly, just saying that he's a man because he liked to play with boys and not girls is ignorant no one's said that, CS is man because XY. Not whatever about boys things.

perhaps [TW] could compete against the women if they were medicated to bring them to a fair level

No amount of medication will make a man competing against women level or fair. The original IOC ruling admitted that, which is why they completely ruled out the idea of trying to make a male person more female to compete against women and they focussed on testosterone levels alone "to bring physiology away from the average man, not more similar to an average woman".

Their decision to allow this (made by a small panel consisting of mainly males and a TW) was woefully misogynistic. Males have different bodies entirely regardless of T levels. Medication can't change body shape, height, foot size etc or erase the advantages of going through male puberty.

It can’t be said often enough (because the mainstream media sure ain’t reporting it properly) that Caster is XY.

She must be to be affected by the rules that she sought to challenge. Whatever genitalia she has (and no one except her nearest and dearest know that, and it is irrelevant), she is biologically an XY male with DSD. She’s not an XX woman with high testosterone, she’s XY with low (for most XY people) testosterone.

She is legally a woman, so is potentially able to compete in women’s sports. But women also need to be able to compete in women’s sports, without being beaten by non-XX people.

To me, the ruling is fair once you know the facts.

Lizard how are you so certain that Caster has XY chromosomes ? Not that I think it necessarily defines a man or a woman

Yanbu op and isn't it tiresome that even this thread is being derailed by a conversation about CS?

She was conceived, developed, constructed by nature as a man. Born as a man. Different build. Different structure. Different animal. Its unfair on women to have to compete with what's essentially a man.

If I were a trans athlete I'd feel like I'm a fraud competing with women. It's not sportsmanship.

I had a great deal of sympathy for C. Semenya. Intersex of course and nothing to do with trans
The interviews though are an eye opener. I don't believe now that CS thinks themselves a woman and that there has been a deliberate attempt to decieve in order to win

I hate the way Caster has been treated. Intersex (old term hermaphrodite) is not male. It's having from birth both male and female characteristics. It's basic biology not a slight of hand by Caster.

I agree OP. It's a crazy situation that needs resolving. Soon. Before more women are cheated out of medals and careers destroyed.

Focusing purely on testosterone levels is avoiding the most important issue.
Transwomen who have been through male puberty have permanent advantages over women in sport that cannot be reversed by dropping their testosterone levels.
They will have a higher cardiac output, higher lung function, higher oxygen carrying capacity, higher muscle mass and muscle to fat ratio, bigger shoulder girdles, bigger feet, a male pelvis with a more efficient carrying angle for running, a different centre of gravity, etc etc.
They keep all these advantages even if castrated with no testosterone at all - transwomen don’t suddenly shrink and remodel their entire skeleton when they transition!

This is why they should either be competing against men, or have a separate trans Olympics, rather like the Paralympics. That way they can still compete, but not destroy women’s sport by unfairly stealing all their medals and setting impossible records that females can never match.

You're deluded. People care just as much. There's as many threads about McKinnon as their is about caster.

She was born with xy chromosome.