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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder when is a sandwich not a sandwich?

30 replies

lookingelsewhere · 02/05/2019 15:09

When is a sandwich not a sandwich?

mentalfloss.com/article/501011/5-ways-define-sandwich-according-law

  1. CALIFORNIA: HOT DOGS ARE SANDWICHES
Hot dogs are often snagged in the center of the sandwich semantics drama. Despite fitting the description of a food product served on a bread-like product, many sandwich purists insist that hot dogs deserve their own category. California joins Merriam-Webster in declaring that a hot dog is a sandwich nonetheless. The bold word choice appears in the state’s tax law, which mentions “hot dog and hamburger sandwiches” served from “sandwich stands or booths.” Applying the sandwich label to burgers is less controversial, but it’s still worth debating.
  1. MASSACHUSETTS COURT: A BURRITO IS NOT A SANDWICH

When Qdoba threatened to encroach on the territory of a Panera Bread in Shrewsbury, Massachusetts, the owners of the bakery franchise fought back. They claimed the Mexican chain’s arrival would violate their lease agreement with the White City Shopping Center—specifically the clause that prohibits the strip mall from renting to other sandwich restaurants. “We were surprised at the suit because we think it’s common sense that a burrito is not a sandwich,” Jeff Ackerman, owner of the Qdoba franchise group, told The Boston Globe.

The Worcester County Superior Court agreed. When the issue went before the court in 2006, Cambridge chef and food writer Christopher Schlesinger testified against Panera [PDF], saying, “I know of no chef or culinary historian who would call a burrito a sandwich. Indeed, the notion would be absurd to any credible chef or culinary historian.”

Justice Jeffrey A. Locke ruled that Qdoba would be allowed to move into the shopping center citing an entry in Merriam-Webster as the most damning evidence against Panera’s case. “The New Webster Third International Dictionary describes a ‘sandwich’ as ‘two thin pieces of bread, usually buttered, with a thin layer (as of meat, cheese, or savory mixture) spread between them,’” he said. “Under this definition and as dictated by common sense, this court finds that the term ‘sandwich’ is not commonly understood to include burritos, tacos, and quesadillas.”

  1. USDA: A SANDWICH IS MEAT BETWEEN TWO SLICES OF BREAD
If you want to know the definition of a certain dish, the officials at the U.S. Department of Agriculture are good people to ask. It’s their job to make sure that the nation’s supply of meat is correctly labeled. When it comes to sandwiches, the agency follows strict criteria. “A sandwich is a meat or poultry filling between two slices of bread, a bun, or a biscuit,” Mark Wheeler, who works in food and safety at the USDA, told NPR. His definition comes from the Food Standards and Labeling Policy Book used by the department (the USDA only covers the “labeling of meat, poultry, and egg products,” while the FDA handles everything else, which is why the USDA's definition excludes things like grilled cheese). Not included under their umbrella of foodstuff served between bread are burritos, wraps, and hot dogs.
  1. ALSO THE USDA: A BURRITO IS A "SANDWICH-LIKE PRODUCT"

The USDA’s definition may not be as simple and elegant as it seems. A sandwich is one thing, but a “sandwich-like product” is different territory. The same labeling policy book Mark Wheeler referred to when describing a sandwich lumps burritos into this vague category. Fajitas “may also be” a sandwich-like product, as long as the strips of meat in question come bundled in a tortilla. Another section of the book lists hot dogs and hamburgers as examples of sandwich-type products when laying out inspection policies for pre-packaged dinners. So is there an example of a meat-wrapped-in-carb dish that doesn’t belong to the sandwich family? Apparently strombolis are where the USDA draws the line. The Food Standards and Labeling Policy Book clearly states the product “is not considered a traditional sandwich” [PDF].

  1. NEW YORK: IF IT’S SERVED ON SOMETHING REMOTELY BREAD-LIKE, IT’S A SANDWICH
When it comes to sandwiches, New York doesn’t discriminate. In a bulletin outlining the state’s tax policy, a description of what constitutes a sandwich warrants its own subhead. The article reads:

“Sandwiches include cold and hot sandwiches of every kind that are prepared and ready to be eaten, whether made on bread, on bagels, on rolls, in pitas, in wraps, or otherwise, and regardless of the filling or number of layers. A sandwich can be as simple as a buttered bagel or roll, or as elaborate as a six-foot, toasted submarine sandwich.”

It then moves on to examples of taxable sandwiches. The list includes items widely-believed to bear the label, like Reubens, paninis, club sandwiches, and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Other entries, like burritos, gyros, open-faced sandwiches, and hot dogs, may cause confusion among diners.

OP posts:
lookingelsewhere · 02/05/2019 15:09

I'm with the New Yorkers on this one!

OP posts:
StuckInsideAnEcho · 02/05/2019 15:18

WTAF

lookingelsewhere · 02/05/2019 15:20

Yep! It's such a serious thing it's gone to court!!!! Grin

OP posts:
bookmum08 · 02/05/2019 15:27

Google the are Jaffa Cakes cakes or biscuits court case. Very interesting.

viques · 02/05/2019 15:31

Is this a TAAT?

If so can I say thanks to whoever is on the mumsnet HQ deleted messages duty desk today, you have clearly had a VERY good lunch.

Grin
QueenOfTheTofuTree · 02/05/2019 15:32

A sandwich is not a sandwich...when it's a wrap 🌯.

lookingelsewhere · 02/05/2019 15:33

Google the are Jaffa Cakes cakes or biscuits court case. Very interesting

Yes, it's quite fascinating.

I see Jaffas as biscuits myself.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 02/05/2019 15:34

Google the are Jaffa Cakes cakes or biscuits court case. Very interesting.

Nowhere near as interesting as how the VAT we had all paid over many years never got refunded to us ....

IsYourGoogleBroken · 02/05/2019 15:34

TBH - American legislation has no bearing on a British site, sorry.

EssentialHummus · 02/05/2019 15:34

I’d like to use this as an opportunity to continue the —thinly veiled horror— considered discussion of this thing: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Down_(sandwich)

Grin
IsYourGoogleBroken · 02/05/2019 15:35

Nowhere near as interesting as how the VAT we had all paid over many years never got refunded to us ....

How would you prove you bought a packet in 1963?

lookingelsewhere · 02/05/2019 15:35

TBH - American legislation has no bearing on a British site, sorry

Do the American burger chains have the same names in the US and the UK, though?

OP posts:
lookingelsewhere · 02/05/2019 15:36

EssentialHummus

That was a carnivore's dream Grin

OP posts:
lookingelsewhere · 02/05/2019 15:38

inews.co.uk/light-relief/offbeat/hot-dog-not-sandwich-says-british-sandwich-body/

The British Sandwich Association has reaffirmed its stance that a hot dog is not a sandwich.

It has spoken out in response to a new article from US dictionary Merriam-Webster, which suggests that the hot dog is one by definition.

“Given that the definition of sandwich is ‘two or more slices of bread or a split roll having a filling in between’, there is no sensible way around it,” according to the dictionary’s blog post.

But Jim Winship, the director of the British Sandwich Association, says: “We don’t consider a hot dog to be sandwich. We don’t consider burgers sandwiches either.”

_

The thing is, the Burger King menu in the UK still refers to sandwiches Confused

OP posts:
viques · 02/05/2019 15:39

Pedant alert. Panini or panino. Not paninis.

I know it was cut and paste, but you never know if impressionable minds are reading.

lookingelsewhere · 02/05/2019 15:41

You're right viques Thank you Smile

OP posts:
DetectiveSantiago · 02/05/2019 15:42

When it's ajar.

happyandbusy · 02/05/2019 15:49

Anyhow, though: Last year, in an entirely unsuccessful attempt to bring closure to the Great Hot Dog Debates, we at The Atlantic developed a grand unified theory of the sandwich: a simple test to determine whether a given composite food product does indeed operate in the tradition of the peckish earl. The Sandwich Index we created consisted of four points:

To qualify as “a sandwich,” a given food product must, structurally, consist of two (2) exterior pieces that are either separate or mostly separate;
Those pieces must be primarily carbohydrate-based—so, made of bread or bread-like products;
The whole assemblage must have a primarily horizontal orientation (so, sitting flush with a plate rather than perpendicular to it); and
The whole assemblage must be fundamentally portable.

So. Under this definition, a burger is a sandwich. So is an ice cream sandwich. So is an Oreo. So is a grilled cheese

www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/11/its-not-a-sandwich/414352/

happyandbusy · 02/05/2019 15:49

This could be the biggest question of our times!!!!!

viques · 02/05/2019 15:57

happyandbusy ooooh, do you think there will be a referendum? If so I would like to nail my colours (ketchup red and mustard yellow) to the wall immediately and declare that I am definitely on the side that Nigel Farage is opposed to, whatever it is.

Judashascomeintosomemoney · 02/05/2019 16:02

When it’s an historic coastal parish on the Kent coast.

DGRossetti · 02/05/2019 16:02

How would you prove you bought a packet in 1963?

VAT was introduced (well, Purchase Tax was renamed) in 1972.

Anyway, that's not the point. The government (well, Customs and Excise) were in the wrong, so they can jolly well sort it out. Maybe they should have thought about that before they broke the law.

Sorry, as far as I am concerned if the government can't live by it's own laws, then it has no right telling us we need to. And no, it's not "different". As things stand, the government is sitting on millions of pounds of unlawfully gathered tax.

Shoxfordian · 02/05/2019 16:04

Following from another thread, when its a sign of how serious your relationship is...

happyandbusy · 02/05/2019 16:05

viques

oh yes, I can see a referendum about it.

John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich is reputed to have invented the sandwich. So it's part of British history and the constitution. The sandwich I had for lunch is certainly in my constitution! Grin

happyandbusy · 02/05/2019 16:05

When it’s an historic coastal parish on the Kent coast

Good answer!