Time taken in lieu

[Rollypoly100]

I work in the NHS. We have a crisis at work where amongst our admin team some have been starting work early and leaving late to accrue TOIL. It seems no one has authorised this. They add up all their accrued time and then take the odd Friday and Monday off. Their manager is reluctant to police this and doesn't want to get involved (incompetent) and it is creating huge resentment.
AIBU to think this is unfair on others who do their work in the allotted time.

It's about flex time. The NHS has a universal flex time system in non patient facing roles, this is how it works. It clearly works for that team or its manager would address it. We only have OP's word they're incompetent.

Thanks for your replies. I think the issue is teams are managed very differently in our workplace and there is greater flexibility for some and much less for others.

If the manager hasn't got an issue with it, it has nothing to do with you - or you can start doing the same! If you all do the same, then management might have to put stricter policies in place.

it does not appear to be authorised. but it might be. You don't know, or in any case, it's none of your business. Just do the same.

No one should spend 1 hour to print 1 document, but that's irrelevant, she could be doing just that at 9am anyway, totally different issue.

It depends on the type of position. Does someone need to cover for them if they are out? Do other people deal with more calls or work when they are out? Or are these people who just have a stack of work on their desk that needs to be dealt with and the specific time it is done is not as relevant

If their manager is happy with the situation it doesn’t really matter what anyone else thinks.

Err, yes it does! I would expect that your HR has strict rules about getting pre-autorisation for ToiL If so, your Manager should be enforcing i, AND ensuring no-one gets an unfair slice of it or leaves you without adequate cover. If not, which would be very unlikely, then you have a serious problem and should complain to HR.

Btw, I've never worked anywhere where ToiL didn't have to be PRE authorised.

If you are in a non customer facing role, can’t you take advantage of the scheme Alsohuman describes? It sounds like your colleagues are.

We don't allow toil unless pre authorised, the same as overtime. I'm in the nhs, non patient facing. However we have to ensure jobs are done consistently through the working hours so staff can't pick and choose. We need to cover x days y hours.
I have had people wanting to arrive early and leave early but I can't have them start before the service does as it doesn't give me sufficient value.
The NHS policy is not universal each Trust has their own policy.

AND ensuring no-one gets an unfair slice of it or leaves you without adequate cover.

the adequate cover is a given, but the "unfair" notion makes it sound a bit too much like people childishly having a tantrum because the another department works differently.

Rollypoly100 I totally get where you are coming from! I worked in NHS admin with someone who was always at her desk when everyone else arrived at 9am. She said she'd been in since 7am. No way to prove she wasn't. Manager didn't give a fuck. So by Friday she'd have 10 hours owing so would leave very early every day the next week. And yes, it will impact on you massively when her phone is ringing off the hook and everyone who comes in looking for her to do urgent stuff turns to you instead, stopping you getting on with your own work. YANBU.

Are you a medical secretary by any chance?

Thenightsky thank you. That is exactly it! My colleague has had extended leave from last November through to end of January. She is back now but in the seven weeks since she's been back there have been boiler problems, emergency dental appointments whatever. She's been in to work only 9 days out of 7 weeks!

That's completely different to your OP.

No it's not. We are not allowed to do flexi or TOIL. It is not company policy. iSome people choose to come in early (without having work to do) and then accrue hours so they can take it off as leave.

The offices were full at 7.30am when the phones were quiet, and like a ghost town come 3.30pm with the few remaining staff (on newer contracts that didn't allow flexitime) having to pick up the bulk of the calls, leaving many unanswered.

It's like that where DP works. He says it's like the Marie Celeste by 4pm. They actually have a rota for "lates", so that they take it in turns to stay till 5pm!

People rack up loads of flexitime, and because you can carry it forward for 3 months, it's not uncommon for people to take 3 days flexitime off. They're canny with it too, they tack it on to a bank holiday weekend so they get a whole week off but only take a day's leave.

I'm afraid if that's how it works, I'd do it too, rather than feel aggrieved that other people were getting away with not pulling their weight.

All overtime/flex/toil has to be authorized where I am - you need permission to come in early or stay late, and you need permission to take any time accrued. Chart on the wall to track that has to be filled in each week, visible to everyone to prevent piss taking. So, you'd write +2hrs for month end report (for example), assuming you had verbal permission beforehand.

Thanks for your replies. I think the issue is teams are managed very differently in our workplace and there is greater flexibility for some and much less for others.

Perhaps some teams get greater flexibility because the work that they do permits it? A team that takes a lot of phone calls from customers would need to have a minimum staffing level whenever the phone lines are open, but a team that is primarily administrative could have more flexibility when it come to who's in and when.

A friend used to be the head of a library service. When flexitime was introduced across the council, some of the librarians got quite arsey that they couldn't come and go when they pleased because they had to be there when the library was open.

Where I work, the head office staff used to really resent having set hours when frontline staff had flexitime. When it was spelt out to them that we had flexitime because we had clients who had to be seen outside of normal working hours because of the clients' own work commitments, they soon shut up. (Mind you, I still don't get why they haven't introduced flexitime for admin staff, it's only reception staff that need to be there from 9-5)

OP, if you work in the NHS, there are policies for flex time and TOIL, why do you keep referring to "the company"?

How do you really know its not authorised though? I find you referring to the NHS as a "company" a bit odd.

I am wondering if the OP works for an outsourced company who does nhs work. Perhaps maintenance contract or similar? In which case she may be under company rules and not the NHS.

However if there is no policy then there are no rules to break so would be manager discretion.

OP are there any policies about core hours or similar?

Have you got opportunity to do the same if your time allowed?

Company is just a figure of speech, of course it is an NHS trust. I've previously worked in private sector companies so getting my head round the NHS various processes has been a challenge. I'm not disputing people doing flexi or TOIL and I'm certainly not jealous or petulant but it is so random - some can and do and others are stringently monitored. It's a far cry from the legal sector where I've previously worked!

Public sector here. Clear policy, only a certain number of days allowed to be taken as TOIL. once we are up to that number any additional hours are worked with no claim for TOIL. (Often have meetings in the evening).

TOIL has to be agreed and signed off by leaders.

Randomness in applying policies - welcome to the NHS!

Where I work you can be +- a certain number of hours at any time and accrue up to 2 days TOIL a month. Come in or leave whenever you like so long as the work is done. It's brilliant but it needs to be company-wide, not just for a select few that manage to get away with it.

I think if possible so far as business needs go everywhere should do it!

Cheeky fuckers playing both ends against the middle and weak management turning a blind eye for a quiet life. Welcome to the NHS.

@Rollypoly100 everyone is entitled to apply for flexible working. Whether it's granted is another matter.

NHS...Same here only we did something about it! Core hours 10-4 but we had a couple of staff who would work 8 til quarter past 4 and build up 15 minutes a day doing sweet fa, NHS annual leave already generous but ended up with 9 extra days of annual leave! Policy allowed one or two days a month of flexi leave. For staff doing their jobs properly they never built up enough time to be able to take an extra day so it meant they not only had to answer the phone every day past 4 for these people but often struggled to take leave as CF had already booked flexi day often last minute. We changed it so no more half or full days taken as flexi and they could only carry four hours over to the next 4 week period. They still faff around washing their cup at ten to 4...Id ask your manager what the flexi policy is and if you're allowed to build up a few hours to be able to take them as a half day and see what the response is, failing that ask what the organisation policy is around flexi leave. We only let people work outside core hours if it's an individual flexi agreement signed off by their manager otherwise they can't leave before 4pm except for an appointment.