Taking son on holiday. Abusive ex permission.

[purplepeoniesx]

Am I right in thinking that if I want to go on holiday with my son I will have to ask for his dad's permission?

His dad will not give permission, and I am nc with him. He's spiteful and hates me for leaving him, even though he was abusive towards me.

Will I have to go to court every time I want to go on holiday?

How will he find out?

Do you and the child have the same surname?

@PlainSpeakingStraightTalking different surname but going to court soon to have it double barrelled (hopefully).

I've heard people get stopped at the airport?

If there is no court order then I believe you don't. If there is a court order then the protocol should be stipulated within the order.

If you have a reasonable return date, are not flying to a country that posses an immediate risk to your child and again will not be breaking a court order then the onus would be on him to challenge it.

And I can't imagine a judge will turn down a family holiday.

How often does he see your son?

Just take his birth certificate showing you as the mother.

@Contraceptionismyfriend he hasn't seen him for weeks, but that's because I've denied access due to safeguarding issues (recommended by SS, HV etc).

Speak to a solicitor just in case. It'd be shit for you both to get turned back at the airport.

If it helps I flew out on holiday with DD7 on Tuesday - we have DIFFERENT surnames and not one person even looked or asked.

To be fair I did have a permission letter from her dad in my bag but the point is I wasn't asked at all. If you take your child's birth certificate and you both have the same name you should be absolutely fine

My dd flew to the USA with my parents when she was about 10 and the most they asked her was who the people she was travelling were. I did give them a covering letter in case there were any problems but they never asked to see any permission and to be honest it could have been written by anyone.

I always carry my son's birth certificate as we have different surnames. I've never been asked for it. Once DS was asked "Is this your mummy?" and he said "Yes". Job done

My dad has taken DS1 abroad 3 times in the last 2 years. Different surnames (I was married to DS1s dickhead "dad") and never been stopped.

I was told by my solicitor that I don't need to ask XHs permission as I am RP (he has access set out in court order but no residency) and as long as I return within 4 weeks (and have bought a return ticket) I can do so without permission. This was a Scottish solicitor and I know Scots law can vary from other UK law so worth checking.

I have carried a letter giving permission , only once did they ask my children who I was but no one ever asked to see letter .

I keep seeing this crop up on Mumsnet. We often take DSS on holiday abroad and have never once been questioned. Before we were married I didn’t have the same surname either. His Mum knew he was going away but has never had to provide any evidence of permission etc at the airport. I’m sure if a parent rang the police and said don’t let X leave the country you’d have some difficulties. But otherwise I don’t think it’s enforced.

Chances are you wouldn’t be stopped anyway.

I’d see a solicitor to confirm. If there is a child arrangements order naming you as resident parent, you can take ds away for up to a month at a time without permission. What I’m not sure of is whether you can officially do so if no order is in place.

I have also travelled just with my DS, different surname to me, on plane and ferry, and had no problems, no questions asked.

There is no court order for DD, but when we went to Italy last year I carried her birth certificate and a letter of permission from her dad. We were fine leaving country, but stopped on way back in- she was asked to explain who me and DP were and asked if dad knew about her holiday. I'd prepped her for this so she was fine about it. Customs guy commended me for having documentation with me. Not sure if we would've had problems without it though- does seem to be different rules in different places or just luck on day. I'd get permission to be sure

How would they know if the letter was written by the father? It seems a very flimsy security policy. I know it's a pita to have to ask permission to go abroad but what if the show was on the other foot and a parent was abducting a child?

I am a solicitor and this is my area of law.

You need his consent or a court order. If you have a residence order then you can take him out of the country for up to 28 days at a time.

For all the people who say that "I've never been stopped at the airport" there are plenty that do get stopped - it's even worse when you're stopped at your destination airport.

Risk it if you want, but I'd apply to court for a residence order (or rather a "lives with" Child Arrangements Order as it's known these days) - much cheaper than a ruined holiday.

You are going to need a court order regarding custody and visitation anyway. your solicitor can advise you on whether or not your particular case is something where you could ask to have it added to the court order that you have permission to travel with the child abroad, but your X does not.

@Collaborate
What suffices for evidence of permission? A letter? How would the airport staff know who was resident parent.

I don’t dispute your technical knowledge, I just can’t see how this is actually implemented effectively.

Not RTFT but I believe that the RP can take their child out of the country for 28 days without permission. I would always carry DC's birth certificate though, if you have different surnames.

@BoxOfBabyCheeses Sorry, but you've also not understood the law. What you state refers to someone in whose favour there is a residence order.

@Foxmuffin It really depends on the border control person. You especially need to consider what position the immigration authorities will take in your destination country. I was in court today and we came out with an order that simply recited that if the other parent agrees in writing then the child can be taken abroad. That doesn't address your question though. The answer is, get all the evidence you can (so a copy of the passport or driving licence, at least something showing a signature- might help).

@Collaborate

Thanks for the response. Sounds less than perfect and a bit impossible to comply with. I guess they take it on a case by case basis and do extra checks if they’re concerned.

Thank god for lawyers like Collabrate ! This question comes up so often and so many people pile in giving incorrect advice. Always along the same lines ... ' I went with my kids and I was fine' NO THIS IS IRRELEVANT!! It doesn't matter if you go abroad a hundred times a year and have never been stopped. It's not just 'technical' it's called 'child abduction' ! A really serious charge . Do all of you who risk this know what you are doing ? Obviously not.

Imagine getting your Dcs all fired up for a holiday, excited as anything, get in the plane, land in Spain/Italy/Croatia/Turkey and mum is arrested because she read some anecdote on MN where a poster said 'they had done it and been fine!'

The rules are clear . If the father of your child is named in their birth certificate then he has Parental Responsibility. It's not just 'a thing' it's a legal right to a say in their child's life. It doesn't matter if he is the arsehole from hell - he has the same legal right as you to make decisions about that child UNLESS a court says otherwise. This includes taking that child abroad.

There is a simple solution if he refuses a letter of permission. You go to the HMCTS website and complete the form for a specific steps order to allow the court to override this lack of permission and to allow you to take the children away without it.
The cost is £215 and can be reduced or completely waived once you fill in the 'help with fees' form. You really don't need a solicitor and self representation is the norm these days. However if money is not tight then of course a good family solicitor can do this for you.

There is literally no reason to take such a ridiculous risk.

The only exception is if there is already a Child Arrangements Order in place naming you as resident parent. Read the end of the order , it will give you permission to go abroad without the other parents permission for up to 28 days. If there is no order this does not apply and you must go through the steps set out above.

Not on birth certificate, and hasn't obtained PR through the courts - then no you don't need permission but take the certificate with you !!

Me and ex dp took our son and my son away loads of times. We all have different surnames- ds1 his dads surname and ds2 double barrelled- no one blinded an eye. Ds2 I wasn’t worried, but ds1 being totally different, but nothing, all fine.

This is the Act that makes taking your child abroad a criminal offence if you do not have the necessary permissions. www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/37/section/1

Note this deals with the criminal law only. Note also the defence in s1(5):

(a)he does it in the belief that the other person—

(i)has consented; or

(ii)would consent if he was aware of all the relevant circumstances; or

(b)he has taken all reasonable steps to communicate with the other person but has been unable to communicate with him; or

(c)the other person has unreasonably refused to consent,

So OP may have a defence under part c, but would you really risk it? Anyway, still doesn't get you through immigration at your destination.