AIBU to ask whether you knew that NI citizens are now automatically British and not Irish

[Flyinga]

Apparently it's a new law that has been passed - first I've heard of it.

Previously they could identify as British or Irish, now they'll automatically be British and have to renounce their passport or something to become Irish.

Is this well known? As far as I was aware, it was part of the GFA that they could have either/both?

Article here

I have both an Irish and British passport and haven’t heard anything about having to give one of them up

@isithometimeyet0987 you don’t have to. The issue is not those who want to be dual nationals it is those who want to be Irish only. The British government is imposing British citizenship on them contrary to the terms of the GFA.

The British government seems to think the GFA is expendable.

Unfortunately they think the same about the people of NI.

But what does it mean in reality? I mean, my friends won't be obliged to give up their Irish passports, and they won't be required to apply for a British one (as passports are voluntary).... So what difference will it make to them?

Surely if they have an EU passport they will be regarded as an EU citizen?

Sorry, have read the Irish Times article and still don't get it.

Elspeth I'm not sure either.

It seems like a rather dramatic change that nobody knows about. Or else they're implementing existing laws or something.

I thought someone on here might know.

You can read about Emma de Souza here:

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjdn8T8k9_hAhWK4IUKHd4GD1QQzPwBegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fderry-woman-puts-her-finger-on-a-bizarre-brexit-anomaly-1.3795544&psig=AOvVaw28tdXVe72q1oBIId2MP7e5&ust=1555866355011839

The issue here is that she was born in Derry and identifies as Irish (and not British) as is her right under the GFA. However, the UK Government has decided that she is automatically a British citizen and as such will apply the stricter entry rules for her US husband.

The British government seems to think the GFA is expendable.
Unfortunately they think the same about the people of NI.

Yet they went into power with the DUP.

The article linked by Flavia explains it better. It affects people who want to only have Irish citizenship and forces them to be treated as British as well when it comes to some EU protections.

So it's a bit of an anomaly or is it something wider?

So, say I'm born in NI, has anything changed in terms of what my citizenship might be?

@Flyinga under the GFA you could chose to be Irish only. The British government is saying now that British citizenship is being imposed on you whether you want it or not.

This has the effect of not allowing you to rely on certain rights that non British EU citizens enjoy in the UK which the UK government decided not to grant its own citizens. The relevant one in this case is residence for a spouse from a third country.

Nothing has changed. This is not about a new or altered legal situation. It's about a particular application of the existing legal situation which it seems was never properly articulated or applied. She is living in the UK, as an Irish national, wanting her US husband to join her. I actually don't know what the law is regarding EU citizens in the UK being joined by their non-EU spouses. I'm surprised by the assumption that it's straightforward. I would have thought the easiest way for her to proceed is for her to move just across the border to Ireland and have him join her there. However, what is happening, is that the Home Office are presuming she is a British citizen and thus her husband's entry is subject to those conditions of entry. Under the GFA, they shouldn't be making that presumption. But, afaik, this has never been articulated in court. Hence this test case.

It's not actually about Brexit, although Brexit is certainly going to exacerbate the issues caused by this problem, because the differences between being under Irish/EU law and under British/not EU law are going to be greater.

Think it’s this:

Post good Friday, NI people could declare themselves Irish (not British), British, or both with no real detriment to their day to day lives whatsoever, as Irish citizens in the UK (or NI people living in NI who consider themselves to be Irish citizens) got loads of rights under the EU. Now the UK government is saying that anyone in NI who could previously decide to be Irish or British is de facto British, which means that the rules change if Brexit happens.

The major issue is the right for non-EU spouses of EU (not British) citizens - there was a situation whereby non EU spouses of UK citizens had to meet stricter requirements for income than nonEU spouses of EU citizens who happened to live in the UK. The UK is now saying that non EU spouses of NI people who identify as Irish citizens have to meet the income standards of UK citizens, even though they consider themselves to be Irish (and therefore EU citizens) as per their rights under the Good Friday Agreement.

Actually it appears to be a kind of Top Trumps nationality - no matter what other citizenships you have, if you are entitled toe British citizenship, then you are treated as British, whether you like it or not. Obviously in the case of Irish citizens this has a particular problem!

So it's not that NI people are automatically British?

Yet they went into power with the DUP.

Oh please! They only went into power with those homophobic, misogynistic bigots, in order to hold onto power. Do you actually think they did it for the good of the people of NI?

@flyinga they are, some of them don’t want to be and the GFA says they don’t have to be.

But what about the ones who want to be Irish?

The Irish ones are now British.
That's how I'm reading it.

That article is misleading and confused over the issue. You can still choose to be British or Irish or both if you’re born in NI. The problem seems to be that some people in NI with only Irish citizenship are objecting to the process for gaining partners visas.

They can still get visas for their partners, but if they hold British nationality they’re expected to apply under that. If they choose not to hold British citizenship they can apply for it in exactly the same way and be treated in the same way with Irish nationality, but to do that, you basically need to tick a box saying that you don’t want to claim British citizenship you’re entitled to which is why you’re applying as Irish. And therein lies the problem, they don’t want to tick the box saying they ‘renounce’ British citizenship because as Republicans they are ideologically opposed to the belief that NI is part of the UK, and they do not believe that the UK has the right to assign nationality to people born in NI so they will not sign something saying they’re going to renounce British nationality because they do not accept the legitimacy of it being assigned to them in the first place.

It’s purely an ideological objection to something administrative which shouldn’t really cause practical problems.

My DH is Irish and won’t take up a UK passport despite being entitled and it’s a bit of a ball ache at the mo but I don’t really have much sympathy with these people because they’re just being awkward for the sake of being awkward.

That’s not correct Fyinga. The Irish ones are arise as they’ve ever been. Just if they happen to be British too, the government is going to treat them the same as other British citizens.

It is a purely ideological position which was meant to be given legal status by the GFA but wasn’t.

Ireland gave up it’s ideological constitutional territorial claim to NI as part of the agreement but the UK has not kept it’s side of the deal.

if you are entitled toe British citizenship, then you are treated as British, whether you like it or not. Obviously in the case of Irish citizens this has a particular problem!

No, that’s not the problem. Peoplr don’t have to apply with British citizenship just because they’re entitled to it. They have to apply with British citizenship if it’s the only citizenship they have or if they have actively taken that citizenship up (eg applied for a passport). People who are entitled to British citizenship but don’t choose to take it up are perfectly entitled to use Irish nationality and be treated in the same way, all they have to do is tick a box saying they don’t want to take up their British citizenship. They’re objecting ticking that box because they do not believe their entitlement to British nationality is legitimate, and they won’t tick that box because they believe it gives legitimacy to UK rule in NI which they do not recognise.

Why should she have to move across the border because the uk government is breaching an international treaty. That's not the answer people and with respect sums up the general british attitude to Northern Ireland citizens.

People who are entitled to British citizenship but don’t choose to take it up are perfectly entitled to use Irish nationality and be treated in the same way, all they have to do is tick a box saying they don’t want to take up their British citizenship.

That is not quite what Emma de Souza says - from her Twitter:

If we want to be accepted legally as just Irish we have to go through the process of renunciation of British citizenship.

It begins with a declaration "I am a British citizen" & requires you to prove you are a British citizen in the first place

And:

Whilst birth in Northern Ireland constitutes automatic British citizenship for those seeking to fully realise their EU rights it is not considered sufficient evidence to renounce British citizenship.

It also costs £372 and requires you to surrender your passport for 6 months whilst they process the application.

medium.com/@ecklewchuk/renunciation-of-british-citizenship-729c32c22ba3?_referrer=twitter