To become a Dr later in life?

[ZooNoLoo]

I say 'later in life', but I'm in my early twenties. I say later in life really because unlike a lot of hopeful medical students, I'm married with a DC.

I've seen that a few places offer a GEM of 4 years for those with an undergrad degree in things like nursing and midwifery. I'm predicted a first (fingers crossed), and the requirement is a 2:1 or Higher. If you achieve it, you stand a chance.

Would I be completely mad to consider this?

I've previously gained experience as a HCA prior to starting my undergrad degree. I know the realities of being puked upon and often put in threatening situations (of which don't involve my spiteful toddler DC!).

I've also spent some time in a GP surgery and I really do have my heart set on becoming a GP. My own GP says she adores her career and wouldn't go elsewhere, but I understand she may just be very lucky.

Would I be unreasonable to even consider this?

I feel like I might be a bit 'old'. I'll be 24 when I graduate with my undergrad. I believe you apply for a GEM in your final year of undergrad.

I'm wondering how worth it this would all be, and in addition to that, how much debt I would realistically be in!

Does anyone know when you start getting 'paid' as a junior doctor? Is it after the 4 years of GEM?

As far as I know, it's 4 years GEM, 2 years further training and then another 3 years specific GP training.

I'm wondering how much of that time I'll be completely reliant on student loans etc.

I really worry about DC too. I'm certain he is my last but I worry how much of his life I will miss. I really want to be a GP and I'm certain, for practical reasons as well as a genuine interest in the profession, that I wouldn't want to specialise elsewhere. It just wouldn't be manageable anyway.

Am I completely insane to even consider all of this?

Go for it...im training as a radiographer at 41. You will have to have amazing childcare as a juniour dr though...you wont see much of them. You could even wait a bit longer so they are older and more independant. Up to you though.

Yes, you get paid after graduating the 4 year course. You would then be working as an FY1. You're also right about the time to become a GP.

Think really carefully about going down this route. There is a reason that doctors, and in particular GPs, are leaving the NHS. It is also difficult to manage family life. For your first two years you can get priority choice of job locations due to having children, but after that you could get sent anywhere. Even within a deanery you can have huge commutes, moving every 4-6 months. I'm a CT1 in a hospital specialty and I love my job but if I could go back in time I would not choose medicine again.

A friend is now a consultant and mum of 2. 2 of her friends left training as they had dc and couldn’t manage it. I guess it depends on how good your support is?

Not insane but make sure you understand where you might be sent on placement as a student and also where you might be sent during VTS training. Not unusual locally to get sent over an hour away in one direction one time then an hour away in the opposite direction the next time.

You're definitely not too old! You are practically an embryo as far as career is concerned.

Childcare is obviously an important consideration for you, but not your age.

It's perfectly doable, but do you want to do it?

I'm a junior doctor and it really is dire in the NHS currently. You could work abroad though.

You're not insane at all, there are lots that train much later ; we had a man who was 48 in our first year of medical school. If you're keen to do it then definitely consider it and get some work experience etc!

Be aware that the GEM courses are extremely competitive though- much more so than regular 5 year medicine undergraduate courses, they will have people from all walks of life including those with phds and very academic scientific backgrounds who will score very highly on the tests for entry; I seem to remember some are 60 to a place but I might be mistaken. Look into the five year courses too to broaden your options as although still extremely competitive, they're without a doubt the "easier" route and they have plenty of graduates on them too.

Check out the fee position too; as it's your second undergraduate degree, a 5 year medicine course would mean you have to find £9k per year fees upfront as student finance don't cover it, plus your living costs. Unsure about the GEM courses finance wise

Your age isn’t a barrier at all- some GEM courses are shorter too although that depends on you having a relevant degree already.

I was a GP for 25 years but left in January having burnout and had a breakdown.
It’s becoming increasingly stressful and pressured and you are expected to work longer hours seeing more people and never ever make an error else you risk endless complaints resolutions and being sued at best- manslaughter charges and years of court procedures and GMC hearings at worst. There’s a reason suicide rates are high.

It’s unbelievably pressured during the training years too. Left alone to cover so many patients with no one to ask or help- you need to be strong and resourceful and not break under pressure.
If you are the right personality and can cope then it obviously has its good bits and can be very rewarding.

But don’t underestimate the family impact- being sent to placements miles away (deaneries can cover miles and you can be allocated a job in any area within in), studying for exams whilst doing shift work and on calls means you are either exhausted or working- hard without a family but bloody difficult with one.

You need a supportive partner who can be flexible with their hours and pick up the bulk of childcare and housework.

I think if it’s something you really want to do and would regret not trying then it’s definitely doable and many people do (and much older than you are) but don’t be blind to the realities.

I think the biggest issue I've seen here is finances.

I can't find 9+ grand a year upfront to pay for the fees to study and train. I won't get the funding because I already got that for my undergrad degree

It is impossible if it isn't paid for. I simply don't have that kind of cash (who does, really?)

If you really are set on it and have a resilient personality and supportive partner and/or grandparents go for it.

I’m an anxious, indecisive person and I probably wouldn’t do it - I were to go back. The emphasis is on service provision rather than training. Plus the finances issue and childcare - a lot to handle...

You might not have to pay the fees upfront. I know you normally do for a second degree but exceptions are made for some health courses. Not sure if that includes medicine.

We left the UK because being a doctor in an NHS hospital is so awful. We live in Australia now which is a pretty good place to be a doctor (I think pretty much every first world country is a better place to be a doctor than the UK).

I do know people who became doctors a bit later and they do well because they're more mature and have more life experience, but then again those people had careers prior to moving across to medicine, which you haven't done yet.

Just bear in mind that you won't really see your family during your foundation years, but as tough as they are they do eventually end!

I was 30 before I went to med school.

The stuff you need to feel sure you can handle isn’t body fluids or people being aggressive; it’s massive hours, being absolutely responsible for ensuring multiple strangers continue to live, running from putting out one fire (by fire I mean something like a cardiac arrest) to another etc.

As PP have said- you def aren’t too old, but, aside from the finances, you need to be fully aware of what you are getting yourself into. GP is a more realistic aim for someone with DC, but if you want to see your DC you’ll need to train part time (after graduation) and it might feel like an eternity. There is always a large amount of non clinical work you need to do (courses, revision, keeping your portfolio up to date), which is done in your own time and for which you don’t get paid......and it’s a fixed amount- going part time doesn’t mean you need to do 1/2 the revision or 1/2 the portfolio. The nhs is an utterly hideous place to work ATM and it’s going to get a lot worse before it gets better. You’d have to be very driven, completely ruthless and have a cast iron support network to get you through. I had a junior who’d been determined to do medicine as a post grad. She destroyed her marriage and her children’s life in the process and by the time I met her was very bitter and wished she’d never done it. I wouldn’t recommend anyone train in anything related to the nhs ATM.

I wouldn't do it if I was you, unless you have very good family support in depth. DH and I were just about managing as 2 nhs doctors until my dad had a serious accident which turned my mum into his carer. I'm not working now as even with a nanny we couldn't manage the child care. Sorry, I think that the NHS just isn't set up for doctors to be mothers. Which is really shit

The stuff you need to feel sure you can handle isn’t body fluids or people being aggressive; it’s massive hours, being absolutely responsible for ensuring multiple strangers continue to live, running from putting out one fire (by fire I mean something like a cardiac arrest) to another etc.

I guess nobody really knows if they can really handle those situations like one fire to the next unless they're expediting them first hand. I cope well in challenging and stressful situations, I know that much

Op, you are SO YOUNG. You can do ANYTHING you set your mind to. If being a gp is what you want, you need to charge forward and get it. You will regret it if you don't, and you can absolutely do this. Life might be a little crazy to juggle for a while, but life is always crazy. Just do it!

Also, fuck the NHS. You can pick a specialty and go private if you want to. You have years and years and years to find your perfect place. Go for it!

There is the possibility of better hours as a GP (there are a lot of part-timers now, which certainly wasn't the case when my relative trained many moons ago) but the hospital side may be tougher to get through with small children. My relative had a full-time nanny when she worked as a full-time GP.

OP I admire your desire and interest but with all due respect you haven’t actually ever worked by the sounds of it? I could be wrong but I’m assuming you have gone school to uni but delayed a bit due to maternity leave?

A bit of PT work as a HCA and a few hours shadowing at a GP surgery gives zero idea of what a heavy stressful workload is really like at the coal face of the NHS when you are responsible for the lives of dozens of sick humans and often well out of your depth. The puke over your shoes or an angry patient really isn’t the issue nor what makes the job stressful and you sound a bit naive thinking it is although maybe you were joking about that but.
Granted medical students in their first degree don’t really know the realities either.

It’s a learning curve for everyone who embarks on it and plenty of students and juniors do drop out.

You are still young. Work for a few years, get the funding saved up and get an idea of work and how that fits with childcare etc and then you can evaluate the idea properly maybe?

grubus I totally agree. You can be a mother and a dr, but only if you are prepared to put your job before your children for almost your and their entire life (although I think the same could be said for many professional jobs). Almost all the female doctors with kids that I know are either hard as nails (with FT nannies) or have a SAHD or DH with a very flexible job AND family nearby for back up. A 2 career house where one is a Doctor is always going to be a challenge. there is absolutely no slack in the system for any life events- bereavement, marriage problems, serious illnesses, and when one of these hits you you realise HOW much of yourself you give in a daily basis to strangers; you literally have no reserve left to look after yourself. The divorce and suicide rate is pretty high amongst doctors.

Become a gp and no you aren’t to old at all. Go for it.

you can pick a speciality and go private. I’m going to assume you aren’t a doctor and know very little about medical training. You can go private AFTER youve done all your training; 4-6 years at Med school, 2 years foundation then 3 years GP training/ 6+ years in a hospital speciality. So a minimum of 9 years to get to the point of being a private GP, and you’d have to pick where you lived in the country to make this worthwhile and 12+ years if you wanted to specialise. Then you have to build up your private practice and do this on top of your 40+ hours/week NHS job. You can’t just go to Med school and set yourself up in private practice.

*I think the biggest issue I've seen here is finances.

I can't find 9+ grand a year upfront to pay for the fees to study and train. I won't get the funding because I already got that for my undergrad degree*

No, no, no OP!

I'm getting ready to apply for GEM 2020 soon and I've been explained that it's not like that for GEM.

Us GEM hopefuls get another similar shot at student finance like our first degree. We have to pay £3,465 out of the £9k for the first year. We can then apply for SF to cover the other £5k remaining. Then we're able to apply for maintenance loan just like we can for our first degree.

Uni of Nottingham also says:
"In years two to four the NHS will pay the first £3,715 towards the University tuition fee. For the remaining amount £5,535 you will be able to apply to Student Finance England for a tuition fee loan.

To help with living costs you may receive a non means tested Grant of £1,000, plus a means tested Bursary from the NHS. The maximum bursary for a 30 week academic year is £2,643 (2017/18 figures). A further £84 per week is available for any week above the 30. (A lower rate bursary is offered if you live with your parents during term time.)"

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Would suggest you read This is Going to Hurt by Adam Kay... if you're still up for it, you're certainly still very young so don't let age alone stop you!