Faith schools - England - which denomination

[Verynice]

I'm quite fascinated by the British phenomenon that is faith schools over here.

I'm Irish, so 95% I'd say are Catholic in the main - i.e. run by nuns for girls schools, run by brothers for boys schools.
Primary schools are not usually run by nuns or brothers but are Catholic in the main. In the past 20 to 15 years, there has been a massive shift to have 'Educate Together schools' which are either non-denominational or multi-denominational. This was to accommodate the growing number of agnostic or atheists in Ireland and also an increasing acknowledgement of other religions. There have also always been small Protestant schools dotted about.

Dd went to a small rural primary with a Catholic ethos. She is now in a Protestant secondary (she is Catholic as am I - though I am a lapsed anti-Catholic really). She got in due to being related to an employee. I have no idea what sort of faith education is involved there - dd never mentions it.

There seems to be a notion here that faith schools perform better. It has been suggested on another thread that people ready to jump through hoops to get their kids into a faith school are likely to be involved parents, therefore those kids and hence the school overall will perform better. Makes sense I suppose.

Which leads to my question - if your children are in a faith school - which denomination is it? Are you devoutly devoted to that faith, or could you take it or leave it?

I've just seen another thread where you must be practising the particular religion. We don't really have to be practising, though I recall the priest requiring her baptismal cert when she was signing up for primary. In primary, preparation for First Confession, First Communion and Confirmation is done during school time and can take quite a lot of time I suppose during the relevant years.

The only time we had to be seen to be practising was once a month in the year we prepped for First Communion where the usual Sunday mass would be dedicated to the children preparing for First Communion. They would maybe be involved in bringing up the gifts, or reading the Prayers of the Faithful or similar. Not a massive inconvenience to me, but heathen that I am, they were the only times we went to Mass!

I'm just fascinated by the school system in the UK. Grammar schools, feeder schools, academies, free education etc. doesn't exist in Ireland.

Anyone care to share their experiences good or bad?

@ZenNudist I found it astonishing coming from from Australia. In Australia you have private schools and state schools. There are very few academically selective state schools but generally there are no selection criteria for schools beyond living in the area. Private schools are sometimes academically selective but mostly operate on wait lists. There’s no indi/public divide, just good schools and less good schools. There is absolutely not state funded religious schooling. That’s seen as divisive and deeply inappropriate. Most of my friends from home are horrified that schools here discriminate on basis of religion.

@verynice it’s quite funny when you put it that way isn’t it? It’s not something you typically think about but the tenuous ‘dd got in because she was related to an employee’ brought it to mind.

I think I'd be very sad to miss out on nativity plays.

This is my favourite!

Ye, the criteria was as follows:

ORDER OF CRITERIA OF ADMISSIONS

1. to children who are Members of the Protestant Community as detailed in Appendix 1.
2. to children who are members of other Christian Denominations as detailed in

Appendix 2

1. to boarders who do not fall into the above category.
2. to children siblings, as detailed in Appendix 3.
3. to children of past students.
4. to children one of whose parents/guardians is an employee of the school.
5. to day students who reside within 8 km of the School.

Not sure what criteria she got in under to be honest, but I was delighted she got in.

In London faith schools are very middle class and as they are allowed to be selective tend to be full of the more affluent local children. To get into a CofE primary around here parents must have been attending church for at least 2 Sunday’s a month in the three years leading up to admissions. This usually isn’t enough - in reality they need to be on church electoral roll & volunteer in some capacity etc..

So if you were already attending church in this way before your baby is born it’s a no brainer, you’ll child will get in. But in many London boroughs it is the choice between a ‘requires improvement’ non faith school and a ‘good/oustanding’ Faith school so many do start attending church in the hope of getting their child into the attached school.

So as a starting point a large pool of faith school applicants parents are willing to spend 3 years at church - this likely means they are very committed to their children’s education. Plus most people who can attend church a min of 2 Sunday’s a month are likely to be office workers/professionals (read higher paid). If you work retail/nursing/fireman etc (read lower paid) your shifts wouldn’t probably allow you that many Sunday’s so again the pool of applicant parents tends to become more affluent.

It also means that local children who have more hectic home lives tend to have parents not organised enough to attend regularly. Children from more hectic homes tend to be more likely to have behavioural problems so schools that take in less children likely to have behavioural issues can spend more time actually teaching.

It essentially means that the local church schools are full of white middle class children and the non faith schools are full of the children who have more hectic home lives or have additional language/learning/behavioural requirements. Huge class divide that is totally self perpetuating. That isn’t even touching on the fact that with all the cuts to education non faith schools are basically forced into hiring NQT with little experience.

I don’t agree with it but it’s the bitter truth in my area of London...

Gosh - I didn't realise it was so class divided! I suppose, giving up an hour a week to go to church to get your kid into a good school is a sacrifice you'd make.

To correct a PP there is no "UK school system" Scotland has not got your free school or academy nonsense. Schools here are either Catholic or non-denominational

I still chuckle at dd when she had her first communion. She gets so excited and is an absolute social butterfly. She was 8. Anyway, after the sacrament etc., we were all to go back to the priests house for tea and cakes, but while we were still in the church getting photos, dd was bobbing around like a hen on a hot tin roof, flitting here there and yonder. I manage to pin her down and ask here where she's off to ' Oh I just have to have a word with the Monsignor'. PMSL. Our priest is a Monsignor. Bless her. What word she was going to have with him the Lord only knows. In fairness to him, he does seem nice with the children if a little bit disconcerted. Knowing dd she was probably going to thank him for a beautiful ceremony lol.

Agree with the person who said faith schools are very middle class in London, though there is a big divide it seems between those who attend those and other schools being very secular. The issue of those 'rediscovering' their faith until their children are all at secondary school is a very evident one- if those who do so continued to attend Sunday mass for even five years afterwards the church probably would have almost double the number of people each Sunday.

Plenty of poverty for us Catholics in Lancashire and NW England generally. Hilarious that it's seen as a middle class thing. Not really that at all around where I grew up.

Bellinisurge we are the same, faith school not a middle class thing here in NW.

Some people do start going to church to get into a school (I didn't have to for our school, but I go now dc doing holy communion). Most people just want their dc to have faith based education and theres lots of good community schools to choose from if faith is not your bag. But apparently we are very lucky.

Here in the north east, admittance to a catholic school is based on baptism, so there are some practising catholics, and some who are more part time.

Our borough is not strong on education, so the input of the diocese helps. The best schools in the area are all catholic.

It is not a class thing here. There are plenty of different backgrounds in the faith schools.

The ethos of the schools tend to be about service and caring for others, and they are stricter in terms of uniform and behaviour expectations, which adds significantly to the school culture, I think.

@tallmushrooms In London faith schools are very middle class and as they are allowed to be selective tend to be full of the more affluent local children.

I did just laugh out loud at that ! I live in London and all the black children go to the faith schools and the pseudo middle class white people wouldn't be seen co-educating. Apartheid is alive and kicking I'm afraid where I live.

Real middle class people go grammar or independent.

I live in an area where we have a mix of secondaries.

4 non denomination grammars (entrance is via the 11+ selection test)
2 Catholic grammars (entrance via schools own admission selection test with priority being given to baptised Catholics)
2 Catholic Academies (priority given to baptised Catholics)
1 Church of England Academy (No faith based criteria for admission)
6 Non denomination Academies
5 Non denomination Maintained Schools
2 Non denomination Private Schools
5 SEN small sized schools

27 schools? Are you counting the whole of your city?

The faith school system in the UK is appalling. It’s massively discriminatory and largely on the ground of income. The schools perform better because they are allowed to chose which children to select and they will inevitably select those that they think are going to perform well and boost the school statistics.

This is from Humanists UK:

“Many faith schools are their own admissions authorities, which means they can give preference to children from families that share their religion, or those who are otherwise religious, over those who are not. Not only does this discriminate against pupils of the ‘wrong’ or no religion and infringe their rights by assuming their beliefs are identical to their parents’: it also leads to segregation along religious and socio-economic lines – faith school populations are often far from representative of their local communities – for example, they admit far fewer children eligible for free school meals.”

humanism.org.uk/campaigns/schools-and-education/faith-schools/

And, shockingly, the government are in the process of expanding this system by approving a massive expansion of the faith school system.

There is a humanists UK campaign to stop faith schools which I hope some of you will support.

@PlainSpeakingStraightTalking I live in Westminster and @tallnushrooms is absolutely correct. The faith primary schools here are full of extremely affluent kids who get dropped off in their range rovers every morning. These people could easily afford private school but why would they when the faith primary schools get such amazing results and cost nothing? They all go to private school once they enter secondary education. In contrast the poorer (often non-white) kids go to the academy primary or run down non-faith primary.

It’s a massive problem. The state at e segragating children on the grounds of wealth and their parents (often fake since they only go to church to get a signed piece of paper) religion. Imagine turning a kid away from a hospital because their parents weren’t religious?!

I'm in Scotland so it's differeny here. All schools are local authority run but we have denominational schools that are all Catholic (except one Jewish primary and one Episcopalian -CofE in Scotland - primary). They make up about 20% of schools nationally but 50% in Glasgow, where I am and where "what school did yoi go to?" can be a somewhat loaded question! Schools in Scotland were mostly founded by the Church of Scotland (presbytarian) but now have next to nothing in terms of church influence. Denom schools are a bit controversial in terms of their sex ed (i.e they don't have to support LGBT equality, just mention it exists in law) but I cannot see us getting rid of them tbh. Not much in terms of admission criteri here in Scotland. Children just go to their catchment school or apply for a 'placing request' to another school so none of this applying nonsense. Where I live children have two catchment schools - a non-denom one and a Catholic one and oarents just choose which one they want.

And as an example, here is the admission criteria for one of our local faith primary schools (the others are practically identical):

(i) Children who are in public care or children who have been previously looked after but ceased to be so because they were adopted (or became subject to a residence order or special guardianship order). Evidence will be requested to support this status. (Children who are looked after are some times called children in public care.)

(ii) Children whose parents worship at St Gabriel’s at least monthly and have done so for at least a year.

(iii) Children whose parents worship at least monthly and have done so for at least a year in other Anglican Churches.

(iv) Children whose parents worship at least monthly and have done so for at least a year in other Christian Churches (as defined by the Churches Together in Britain and Ireland).

(v) Children who are baptised Anglicans (baptismal form will be required).

(vi) Children who are baptised by other Christian rites (baptismal form will be required).

In each of the categories ii – vi parents should provide a supporting statement from their priest or minister.

(vii) Children who have siblings, already in the school, at date of entry to Reception Class. A sibling is defined as a brother or sister, half brother or sister or step brother or sister whose main residence is at the same address.

(viii) Children whose parents live in the parishes of St Gabriel’s, St Saviour’s and St James the Less.

(ix) Children of other faiths who practise their faith at least monthly and have done so for at least a year. (Supporting Statement from Religious leader required)

(x) Children who do not meet any of the previous criteria

We are not religious, my daughter is not baptised and I refuse to pretend to be religious so we stand little to no chance of getting into one of these schools.

You have to realise, OP, there is not a 'UK' or 'British' education system. You are focusing on the English system, which is an utter mystery to me too.

In Scotland there is state education (primary and secondary) or private schools. The vast majority of children go to their local primary which will feed into a specific secondary. That is it, unless you are in the small minority that privately educates or home schools.

The glaring and unpleasant anomaly in the Scottish system is largely in the west coast/Glasgow where there are state catholic schools - due to our long and shameful history of sectarianism as a country.

@TheNavigator there are Catholic schools in every LA in Scotland apart from na-Eilanan Siar, Shetland and Orkney I think. There's just more of them in this neck of the woods.

What gets forgotten is that the majority of C of E primary schools do not have a faith criteria in their admissions policy as the majority of C of E schools are Voluntary Controlled and have the same admissions policy as the local authority. Less than half of CofE Primaries are Voluntary Aided. These schools set their admissions criteria and can have a faith element. Not all do. For those that have a faith criteria and are undersubscribed it doesn't kick in until there are more children than places.

I've been on the governing body of two Aided schools. One had no faith criteria in its admissions policy. The other has one at number 4 I think but we are undersubscribed so it is irrelevant.

It is only a minority of C of E schools where the sudden onset faith syndrome affects parents. This is most acute in London.

1887 VA schools
2319 VC schools

From Fair Admissions campaign.

C of E schools are 26% of primary schools.

The oversubscribed faith schools that select by church attendance are on the minority but it doesn't make it any easier for parents that are affected.

Verynice I don't live in a city I live in a town and yes it is 22 secondaries in the local authority borough not including the additional 5 SEN schools You can have the choice to put any of them down on your preference form.

The 11+ isnt a state exam. Its a school entetence exam, taken in the last year of primary school year 6, (fifth class age or slightly younger depending wether your child started after they'd turned or 5) set either by the school or tue local group of grammer schools. Its taken around the october half term. Some will be denomational mainly C OF E. others won't.

You also have to remember school ages are quite different. In England you have to start primary school in the acedemic year you turn 5, and the cut off is the 30th of augustm so that means that there are children starting school in september who will prehaps pnly turned 4 literally days before. Where in ireland after march and april children tend to start school after their fifth birthday. Indeed fpr most secondru schools you have to be have been 12 by the january of first year. Children in the uk leave primary after year 6, aged 11.

As for state exams. GCSE and A levels aren't aminstored in the same way as JC and LC. Where as the junior cycle starts in ireland as soon as you start secondry. The GCSE cycle doesnt start until year 10, the 4th year of secondry school (about the age equlivent of 2nd year in ireland) and are taken in year 11, the year the child turns 16 there are lots of exam boards that set slightly different exams and sylimbuses, not one standard exam across the whole country like ireland. There is also no transition year in england, you finish your GCSE'S and either leave school or do two years of A Levels or vocational training such as NVQ's

oretty much every child in ireland wouldbt finish school until they'd finished their LC at 17/18/19. Most children in england regard themselves as left school at 16.