To think my 7yr olds behaviour is not normal?

[AintNobodyHereButUsReindeer]

This has been our norm for a few years now, can't remember exactly when it started but we just used to think it was typical toddler behaviour but now she's 7, we're starting to think something can't be right

Mostly she's fine and happy etc. Sometimes she'll be grumpy and moody but mostly she's okay. Once or twice a week, sometimes not even that, it can be as little as once a month, you tell her it's time for a bed and in the blink of an eye she's transformed into a screeching wild animal who kicks and hits (used to bite me but she's not done it recently) and laughs that she's not going to bed, she's not tired and you can't make her go to bed. She'll run off and hide behind the sofa or under the dining table and won't come out. The crosser you get, the more gigglier she gets we try our hardest not to lose our tempers with her but it's just so difficult. I've got a bruise on my arm from where she kicked out and caught my forearm with her heel two nights ago.

When she was smaller we'd just pick her up easily and carry her to her room but obviously now she's bigger it's harder and more dangerous trying to carry her upstairs while she's thrashing around. No-one believed us about this until BIL moved in with us and saw it for himself, he was gobsmacked.

The only thing that gets any kind of reaction from her other than laughing, when she's like this, is threatening to take her favourite teddy away, but that just throws her into a complete frenzy, she'll start screaming 'NOOOOOO NOT TEDDY!' So I don't do that but DH can't seem to understand that it makes her worse and makes the already slim chance of her cooperating non-existant

She's not like this at school, but her teacher is pulling her hair out over DDs refusal to do her schoolwork. She was the model pupil in Reception and Yr2 (she had the same teacher in those years) but in Yr1 and now Yr3 with different teachers, she just refuses to do work and no punishment seems to faze her. She doesn't really have friends at school, I can't remember the last time she was invited to a birthday party and she's never ever been invited to play at someones house. She had a best friend in her class but she moved schools at the beginning of Y3 and DD was devastated and still says she misses her. The teacher has noticed that DD doesn't seem to have a specific group of friends and just seems to drift around various groups at playtimes She also says she wants to move schools but we're not sure if it would make everything worse or not. It would be easier for us as we have a school that's a 2 minute walk away whereas her school is a 10 minute drive away.

We have a 10 month old who adores her, and in return she adores him. Except when she's in a mood she'll tell him/us that she hates him and that he's a stupid baby. If she's on the sofa he'll stand up and try to grab her she'll push him down, not hard. She just pushes him gently but it's still a push. I tell her off for pushing him but I just get a shrug and glared at in response.

Lately her bad moods are here more regularly and it puts a downer on almost everything nice that we do. She complains that we don't do stuff together anymore, we try our best to each spend time with her without the baby. The other week I took her to a pottery cafe and we had a lovely time just the two of us. As soon as we got home her foul mood appeared and she was horrible for the rest of the day.

We're at our wits end and so's her teacher with the schoolwork. Not really sure what to do because the worst behaviour is at bedtime so no-one sees it and I don't think her bad moods go to school with her, no-one has ever said anything about her being really moody and grumpy. It's like she saves it for at home. Should we speak to the teacher about all of this or what? We always assumed she would grow out of it back when we thought she was just being a toddler but it's clear that's apparently not going to happen.

The morning after one of these bedtime fights, she'll sometimes say she tries to control it but she just can't. She has also said that she had an angel sat on one shoulder, and a devil sat on the other. The devil was telling her to do naughty stuff, the angel was telling her to be good so the devil killed the angel. I wasn't sure whether to be worried about that because it's in an episode of The Simpsons which she watches occasionally so I just assumed she saw it there. She's also said stuff about seeing monsters that follow her everywhere

Actually seeing all of this written down makes me think we should've gone to see someone about it before now we just thought we could handle it, that she'd grow out of it etc as she will go ages without one of these bedtime fiascos and we think it's all over, and then it'll happen again...

I'm sure her behaviour isn't being caused by screen time, but I wonder whether cutting it back/removing altogether wouldn't help possibly?

An old phone, iPad, X box and PS4 seems an awful lot for a seven year old! How much TV does she watch?

Does she get lots of exercise and fresh air?

I would keep a diary of what she eats/does so you can see if there is any pattern to her moods/outbursts.

Only the iphone is hers, and she only really plays music on it, mainly at weekends and bedtimes. She doesn't go on the ipad much, maybe a couple of hours (if that) spread over a week. PS4 is new, we only got it 2 months ago and she's not been on it much. She hasn't actually been on it for about a month. The Xbox is BILs and if she's been good she'll go to his room and they'll spend an hour eating snacks and racing cars or playing Lego dinoaurs together on it, that's once a week-ish if he's here, usually less. Probably more like every other week.

So it does sound a lot but it's not really!

How close to bedtime is she gaming?

She goes outside scootering in all weathers chucking it down with rain and she'll have a tiny pair of shorts on, wellies, a coat, gloves and sunglasses. In summer we struggle to get her to come inside!

She only games up to bedtime when she does it with BIL. And like I said that's not often and she goes to bed easily on those nights! Any gaming is generally done in the mornings or mid afternoon before tea and almost never on a school night!

I have a 7 year old who is a handful and always has been. I too thought he would grow out of meltdowns and screaming tantrums by now. He can also be very grumpy and likes a good whinge!

I agree with a pp, your dd uses a lot of devices. Is she allowed use them during the week before bed?
I've noticed my ds gets very angry and frustrated if he plays the Nintendo switch late in the evening at the weekends. I've cut that out now and he's less moany.
He was very grumpy after school today, turns out he was hungry as he hadn't eaten most of his lunch!

I would definitely arrange a meeting with his teacher, maybe speak with her past teachers if possible.

Sorry x post with you op

I have a 7 year old DS plus 2 younger children , he also still has meltdowns and can be violent, although his usual trigger is mealtimes or transitions from an activity. He's lovely at school.

My mum is a former learning disabilities social worker and thinks he is on the autistic spectrum, albeit high functioning.

His bad behaviour seems to come from anxiety and the things that help are distraction, pre-warnings, praise for good behaviour and solid rules and routines.

My two boys went through similar at 6/7 and my niece did too. Not as violent I’ll give you that (except my eldest did try to push me down the stairs but he only came to live with me when he was 4 and has attachment issues and he only did it once)
I find ignoring the rages is the only way I coped. And the ‘good’chart, my sil did a thing where she gave her little slips of paper and physically took once away when she misbehaved and if she had enough left at the end of the week she’d get a treat.. seemed to work.

I personally find 6/7 a really hard age and I think I might move out for a bit when youngest gets there (she’s 4) they’re testing their boundaries big style!

I’d see the school about her work though, they can’t just be letting her sit there and not do it. My eldest was refusing to start his work so the teacher told him he was gunna put a timer on the desk so when it went off it would remind him to start his work.. frightened the shite out of him and he started doing his work immediately, but he was 10 by then so a bit older and more conscious about being embarrassed by a bloody Great alarm going off and the entire class staring at him...

Definitely keep a diary and see if you can detect any pattern to her behaviour. Even if it's caused by a developmental disorder or other issue, it could be exacerbated by environmental factors particularly as she's not like it all the time.

Someone will be along suggesting the PDA presentation of autism in a minute....

Echoing other posters. iPod, iPhone, Simpson on TV, Xbox, PS4, new baby, loss of DDog, loss of best friend, arrival of Uncle in her home. She's only 7.

It's good that she has a regular routine for bedtime. Also good that she's stable at school (I wouldn't change schools, no). Does she eat well? Drink enough water and consume limited sugar?

I don't know about extra or special needs, but to me she sounds like a normal 7yo who's still struggling to regulate her temper, although even that sounds like it's getting better.

The refusal to do any schoolwork could be a completely separate issue to the bedtime tantrum. It's good she's responding to the sticker chart.

Not a very helpful post, on reflection, other than that I think zero gaming is appropriate at her age. It's great she loves playing outdoors, I'd go that way entirely.

www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is/pda.aspx

I used to be a bit like this as a child. Turns out I have Asperger's.

I'd absolutely get her assessed for ASD and read that PDA link too.

To me it sounds as if she's jealous of her little brother (although she clearly also loves him very much), and this is the way she expresses her contradictory feelings.

She has found a way to rile you up and keep you worried and focusing your attention on her. And it also works with her teacher!

Talk to a child psychologist, by all means. But I suspect that if you ignored her tantrums, so as not to reward her behaviour with your attention, while reassuring her separately that you love (doing thing alone with her, etc.) things would get better.

I too suspect this is about her new baby brother and moving schools. That is a lot to deal with when you are only 7.
Also what is the Uncle like with her? Was her behaviour like this before the Uncle moved in?

Have you asked her why she acts like this at bedtime? My 6 YO is reasonably able to explain why he's having a meltdown now. He still has them but he can express himself better with them which helps.

Try to look at it from another angle. What's going on with you, DH and the baby when she has the melt downs? Do they usually happen on the days you've had a crap day with the baby or DH is knackered from work? Could your own stress and anxiety about her behaviour be aggravating it?

What happens if you totally ignore her tantrums? Say you, DH and the baby go into another room and leave her. What happens then?

We have had years of bedtime issues with my girl (age 10) and also years of trying to get some kind of diagnosis for asd or adhd or spd. For bedtime she essentially doesn't have an official time to go to bed. It used to be a two/three hour battle of her being up and down, wanting this, wanting that. Sometimes getting angry and trashing her room. Every evening from 8pm onwards was all about her. Sometimes we would end up falling asleep before her. It felt our lives were on hold. Now we don't tell her "It's bedtime". We essentially leave her be - she reads, writes stories, draws. Sometimes listens to music. Sometimes building Lego or sorting beads. She has set herself into a semi routine and goes to bed when tired and now we have evenings back. It isn't perfect. She still has issues going on.
This all sounds completely crazy and all the experts would probably be horrified but it works for us. Try to back off from "time for bed, time to clean teeth" etc and just say "let us know when you want to go to bed" and see what happens. May be a disaster. It may work.

I have no idea if this is the case for your DD. But sometimes when kids, and adults, are angry about something, they can be fine most of the time. And then something can trigger off the anger. But the key is that although there is a trigger there and then, there is an underlying cause for the anger.

Can you start off by monitoring her behaviour for a couple of weeks. Make a note of feedback from school, meaning routine, her behaviour, what you tried and how she responded? There might be a very subtle pattern of things that trigger it off.

It sounds like maybe she's feeling emotions that she can't express another way so she's demonstrating it through her behaviour. Maybe anger or worry. If you can get to the root of what's causing it and try to address that if possible, that will probably be more effective than trying to manage the behaviour. Not easy though!

Also as a general rule, unless there is imminent danger to her or others, I would consider trying out the old reinforce appropriate ignore difficult behaviour approach. Esp as it sounds like you or your DH getting understandably frustrated escalates it. What would happen if you calmly said to her in age appropriate language that you won't engage with her when she's behaving like this, but when she feels calmer you would love to sit and read a story and it's her choice. Then follow through by continuing to ignore and rewarding when she can come and talk to you differently. And another biggy is be consistent, whatever you decide to use as a way of tackling it, do the same thing every time for an agreed trial period and make sure anyone else in the house also responds the same way. If I ask for a biscuit 20 times and get a no but then the 21st time I get a biscuit, I will keep asking for a biscuit. Yum biscuits 😉 Good luck and remember this isn't your fault, all our brains are super tricky but kids don't have the understanding or skills to deal with the tricksiness as well as (most) adults x

• evening routine

Just to add my guess is that she's experienced two big losses in her little world (friend and dog) plus maybe other losses like not being an only child, or stuff you don't even know about in her peer relationships, and she doesn't know how to process that so it comes out as mixed up defiant behaviour.
Might be worth thinking about ways to help her process the losses, poss with external support if that's useful. Would it help to visit the dog or the dog to write to her to let her know he's thinking of her? does she have communication with her friend - FaceTime etc? Can she have a new pet that is more small child friendly? Can the school help with social skills if that's an issue with her peers? Has anyone at school asked her about her relationships with other kids or is it observation only? Sorry just some more questions to add to the mix! :)

If you know she likes bedtime stories, I would turn things around a bit. Have a story with her before bedtime routine, then put her in charge - tell her the things that need doing and that her second bedtime story will begin at X time (or when X alarm goes off). Make it an amount of time that she can reasonably do shower/teeth/PJs etc. Then let her get on with it (helping if she needs it obvs!). Then the bedtime story happens and if she misses it because she’s arsed around then it’s her lookout. Teddy, obvs, will her the story every time.

Heaps of praise and perhaps extended story time and a sticker when she gets it right - which she is doing more often than not looking at OP.

She may be just struggling with wanting independence- I mine (same age) gets out of bath and into pjs much more efficiently when I do this, rather than me being part of process now.

A couple of things occurred to me..

Don't engage in the 'game' ie the refusing to go to bed, hiding, giggling etc..

Story time is at x time, at x time you will be in her room, with Teddy, reading a story. Either she is there or she is not.

Rewards - the problem with being good for a week is this.. if she's good for 6 days and messes up on the 7th, she gets nothing?

If she messes up on day 1, she also gets nothing by day 7 so... why bother trying for the rest of the week?

I think youd be better with a system whereby each good day is 'stored' and so when she has 7 good days, the reward, a day where she messes up means the reward is postponed for one day, rather than wiping out the whole week.