Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that this has no place in this country

190 replies

brizzlemint · 26/03/2019 03:42

www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/mar/25/too-poor-to-play-children-in-social-housing-blocked-from-communal-playground

At least one multimillion-pound housing development in London is segregating the children of less well-off tenants from those of wealthier homebuyers by blocking them from some communal play areas.

Guardian Cities has discovered that developer Henley Homes has blocked social housing residents from using shared play spaces at its Baylis Old School complex on Lollard Street, south London. The development was required to include a mix of “affordable” and social rental units in order to gain planning permission.

OP posts:
TFBundy · 26/03/2019 22:23

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

Merrymumoftwo · 26/03/2019 22:58

The pictures don’t show these blocks are in a gated community as such, including the social housing in the muddle of an estate full of social housing with play areas and community facilities open to all. The play area in question in plans and when advertised was for use of all the gated community residents irrespective of whether private or social housing then the goal posts moved. I hope those affected do pursue this given the number of mixed developments occurring. There is another similar development recently completed just down from there. Again with separate communal areas for those social and private but not the rest of the estate. Our play areas are open to all yet as we are under a different housing management group (there are five currently running different sections of the estate) and pay for these when others don’t should we stamp our feet and demand restricted access in line with some comments on here?

Nnnnnineteen · 26/03/2019 23:23

Vanessa feltz had an interesting debate on this this morning on her radio show and one of the questions she posed was : are we protecting our own safety at the expense of small children having fun.
I'm sure if I had spent a shit load on a property I would want to protect it to an extent, but I do have a twitch about little ones looking through the fences in a Dickensian style a la Bob cratchit. We are effectively creating ghettos within the ghetto.

BlueSky123456 · 26/03/2019 23:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Gth1234 · 27/03/2019 00:00

its probably a non story. its probably a paid for amenity, like a swimming pool might be also.

CaptainSquirrel · 27/03/2019 00:09

I'm a social housing tenant on a mixed development. I pay a service charge same as every other occupier in my development, whether social housing or not. I imagine the social housing tenants in this development do too.

CaptainSquirrel · 27/03/2019 00:13

The service charge is for cleaning communal areas, maintaining hedges and lawns etc. We don't have any play areas as such, just grass that the kids run around on but if we did I would expect my service charge to cover access to that. I don't see how you could separate it.

HelenaDove · 27/03/2019 00:20

But if I'm paying hundreds of thousands of pounds for an apartment, I'm effectively paying not to have to

So you are saying us NON drug users should pay more not to have to live among drug users.

Well how about HAs start fucking taking some responsibility for their own actions and not allocating flats to them.

Ah but then there would be less stigma which will affect the motive behind this. Run an estate into the ground with the managed decline tactic/turn it into a ghetto then it can be marked for regeneration which will involve moving out ALL the tenants.

Quite genius really. And no one will care because they are ALL druggies dealers or violent right.

Your post shows that these tactics work like a charm.

UnPocoLoco2 · 27/03/2019 00:26

Yes it is horrific. Especially as we are quite a low income family. My kids would be so sad if this happened to them. I would be mad. Modern day segregation.

Orangecookie · 27/03/2019 00:38

I think this goes on everywhere though doesn’t it? You pay for nicer areas with nicer parks, if you can’t you don’t. I don’t like it, but I think it’s naive to think social developments are any different. Commercial properties will only be commercial if they can attract people who can pay.

dreichuplands · 27/03/2019 00:48

I was initially appalled by this but on reading through the details and realizing that the two different types of housing are owned by two different groups and charged very different amounts of service charges and ground rent I could see where the decision came from. They have two totally different owners, management and fee structures. The only things they have in common is that the social housing was built at the same time to allow permission for the market value housing to be built.
The part that shouldn't be allowed is changing the planning permission after the approval has been given.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 27/03/2019 01:03

Not sure what the fuss is. Wealthy people have private schools, private health care, 1st class travel etc why should anyone get free access to facilities that others are paying for?

I know if I bought an very expensive house in a nice neighbourhood I wouldn't want joe blogs and his children using my private play area, that I pay to maintain.

You get what you pay for.

Alaimo · 27/03/2019 01:05

I live in a housing development with something like 15-20% social housing. I'll be emailing the management company tomorrow to enquire whether the social housing tenants also have access to the gym & underground carpark, because I'd be really pissed off if they don't. I agreed to pay the service charge when I moved in and I couldn't care less if the SH tenants do or don't pay this. The gym & carpark are generally both half empty so I don't see the need to ration/limit access to either service.

dreichuplands · 27/03/2019 01:13

The issue I see alaimo is that the social housing tenants may not have paid their service charge to use these things and may not want to or be able to. I do think that if all the tenants are part of the same company they should have the same opportunity to buy into using the services. I imagine it becomes more complicated if different companies run different parts of the development.

HelenaDove · 27/03/2019 01:24

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/26/playgrounds-rich-kids-housing-social-apartheid

"Playgrounds only for the rich kids? What grotesque social apartheid.

A developer has fenced off social housing residents from a playground outside their homes. This is society at its most mean-spirited.

One playground for the children of the rich, another for the poor.

It’s hard to think of an idea more crassly offensive than a supposedly mixed housing development where even toddlers are deliberately segregated by their parents’ salaries; where small children have to be told they can’t play with their friends on the swings their flats actually overlook, because that’s not for the likes of them. But that is what appears to have happened at the Baylis Old School development in south London, where an impenetrable hedge separates the owner-occupiers’ children’s playground from the social and affordable rented housing in the same block.

It beggars belief that anyone could have thought such social apartheid acceptable but it’s particularly galling in what used to be a school, even if the idea of education as melting pot is arguably more fantasy than reality. The development is on the old site of the Lilian Baylis school in Lambeth, a stone’s throw from Westminster and thus well trodden by visiting politicians. Tony Blair was famously once heckled there by pupils as he opened a new building, but he came in the first place because the then shadow chancellor and nearby resident Oliver Letwin had suggested he’d rather “go out on the streets and beg” than send his kids somewhere like Lilian Baylis. Plus ca change, then.

For housing is only a mirror of the society around it, in which middle-class families invariably colonise the nicest neighbourhoods – the ones with lots of lovely green space, in the catchment of the best schools – and poorer ones fit around the edges. But even for London this development is a particularly brutal example of social stratification, given that the whole point of forcing developers to include affordable housing along with the posh bits was to encourage residents to mix naturally and break down social barriers. Here, literally the opposite has happened; what was originally shown on plans as a gate opening between these two worlds was later turned (seemingly with planning permission) into an impassable boundary.

To their credit, some of the owner-occupier parents are among those protesting that their kids can’t play with friends on the other side of the block. Hopefully they will find ways of smuggling the interlopers into the posh park, but that doesn’t stop other developments from following suit.

Almost everyone involved has an excuse for how we got here. The developer responsible for the better-heeled bit of the block points out that, as is common practice, it devolved responsibility for the social bit to a housing association; the housing association in turn says it has no powers over access. The council says rather feebly that the smaller strip of play space allotted to the poorer families meets minimum legal requirements for children (what others might add is that councils under intense pressure to build often aren’t in a position to play hardball with developers, who routinely try to chip away at profit-sapping social housing commitments after the deal is signed.

But perhaps the most candid answer came from a spokesman for the company that manages the private part of the block, Warwick Estates. She said that the families in social housing don’t pay maintenance charges and that’s why they don’t get the nice playground. It’s not some unhappy oversight, but a deliberate policy to keep them out.

What a perfectly grotesque microcosm, then, of the mean-spirited society in which we live; a world where even two-year-olds can be treated as freeloaders, scroungers who aren’t paying their way and therefore shouldn’t benefit from the hard work of others, as if there was no such thing as the concept of a public good. The developers should do the decent thing and chop the hedge down. But the real problem is the social attitudes that allowed it to be planted in the first place."

Notwotuknow · 27/03/2019 01:27

I've read an article about this before and actually the HAs don't want to share facilities as they would then have to share the much higher mantainance costs.

Keeping things separate allows the HAs to use their own cleaning crews, etc, and to keep any associated costs lower. It's for the same reason that they want separate access/ entrances/ bins, etc.

Notwotuknow · 27/03/2019 01:33

Generally once the development is completed, ownership of the HA block/ houses/ flats, etc, is transferred over to them and they appoint their own management company to run out on their behalf.
They obviously have a budget that they have to stick to, and I'm assuming that as their income from these properties is lower that their budgets are quite tight.

Notwotuknow · 27/03/2019 01:37

All tenants and owners will be paying a service charge, but that charge is most likely paid to 2 different management companies, and the amount is likely to be very different, depending on whether you're a private owner or a HA tenant.

user1471426142 · 27/03/2019 01:50

I’m torn. The concept is hideous to me but I can see how it has happened with the design and the responsibility for different houses lying with different organisations. When I was looking a few years ago, I was really put off by some of the new build developments and the way in which the affordable housing was incorporated. I never really saw it being done well.

IC4nSeeYourPixels · 27/03/2019 02:02

Not that long ago I was on a thread about class and attitudes towards the working and under classes. A lot of people were arguing it doesn't exists and that they don't judge people on low incomes.

A lot of people on this thread are showing that people do judge those on low income incomes.

And I'm fed up of arsehole saying shit like "choose high income jobs". Or "work harder if you want more money"

I feel like we're at a time in history where everything is heading backwards. The snobbery and hatred and judging of people from low incomes. Saw someone recently suggest that uneducated poor people shouldn't be allowed to vote and Brexit wouldn't happen.

Race, class, sex, seems to be an increase in hostility and exclusion of people who are not white, people who are not middle/upper class and people who are not male. It genuinely worries me what's happening in several areas at the minute and how each element will shape the future.

MissUGirl · 27/03/2019 02:05

Things in life we dont have to pay for: Lots of our local parks.

You don't pay council tax then?

Madein1995 · 27/03/2019 02:34

The council couldn't have stopped it (anyone with half a brain could imagine the headlines and I'm sure council will have tried). Play ground area in HA block satisfies criteria. Perhaps there's a problem with the criteria.

The HA block and the Privately owned block, are owned by seperate companies. If this was the same company then the uproar is logical. However by the sounds of it they are in effect two different buildings and blocks with different rent costs, different facilities and different owners. It's not saying 'floors 1-3 can't use X but floors 4-7 can't.

I'm not saying it's nice, because it's not. It's pitiful that the HA play area meets the requirements. It's small, there's a complete lack of green space and the toys etc are sparse at best. That's without the exclusion factor - different play areas automatically creates a barrier for children to make friends etc.

What I am saying though , is that the blocks are owned by seperate companies so I fail to see what can be done. As someone said upthread, this is what is wrong with the current housing system.

Also I think the attitudes towards the private owners on here are a bit off. Calling them wealthy, making snide remarks over how can they stand it -as though they are responsible - calling them posh and how can they live with themselves. Why shouldn't they? They have bought or part bought a home. They pay fees on top for the facilities in the block they bought within. These include playing areas, presumably amongst other things. That isn't a crime. They aren't guilty of anything. Why the hell shouldn't they be able to live with themselves, why should they feel bad? They pay the fees for their block. They have a right to use it, and no they shouldn't feel bad.

And yes I would be hacked off if I were paying extra for my child to use the area (because I was 'posh' and could clearly afford it) and others didn't pay a penny. Either have everyone pay a (reduced) rate or make it free for everyone.

The anger shouldn't be at the residents, certainly don't understand the snide comments. The anger should be at regulations allowing such a pitiful play area, and regulations allowing two companies to effectively each own half of a development, which due to the differing nature of the accomodation and costs involved, is naturally going to lead to differing facilities

Marchitectmummy · 27/03/2019 02:47

It all comes down to management fees.

Someone has to pay for facilities. If the whole development pat's the maintenance charges for affordable housing are higher and may be unaffordable for some. If the area is paid for by only private residents the amount paid by each resident will be higher for those residents than if it's split amongst all of the development.

So imagine if the cost is 10000 per year to maintain. Total development of 100 homes, paying 100 each, all get access. Noe imagine the affordable portion can not afford 100 each, so say half are privat half are affordable so now 50 homes are paying 200 each.

Would you be happy paying 200 and yet someone over there is paying nothing to use what you are paying for? That is the crux of the issue it's no more complex than that and is why private blocks have more facilities than affordable. It's not new all developments are like this, as this is open space rather than a faster lift it's visible to the media and made to be political.

AdvancedAvoider · 27/03/2019 07:26

*Not that long ago I was on a thread about class and attitudes towards the working and under classes. A lot of people were arguing it doesn't exists and that they don't judge people on low incomes.

A lot of people on this thread are showing that people do judge those on low income incomes.*

This is the most truth that's been said on this thread.

When there was segregation due to the colour of your skin, some people thought it was fine. Now we look back at history and the majority of us are appalled.

Those saying segregation of small children is ok because their parents don't earn enough is absolutely galling and you should all be ashamed of your hypocritical selves.

This is one thread I hope the DM do pick up to show that class system is still very much alive and well in 21st century Britain.