to ask if Grenfell residents could have been evacuated

[why100000]

had the fire brigade not blindly followed the “stay put” policy.

Am watching the documentary on Channel 4 at the moment.

Unbearable .

What @Crazyfrog007 said

The fact is, if everyone had follows the fire service advice, many more people would be dead today. The people who survived were those who went against the advice and left the building. I sometimes wonder what I would have done. Those near the top of the building had little chance, but if they had left the moment they heard there was a fire... would they have survived too?

Spot on, Crazyfrog! One of the wealthiest councils in the world, cheaping out on building safety because hey, what's a few poor people? Fucking twats.

"Stay put works when a building is properly and safely constructed. I won’t watch Dispatches because I am absolutely disgusted that such a programme has been made when the inquiry is still ongoing. To blame those that did what they did that night is downright disgraceful. Every single one of the firefighters and 999 call takers will relive that night for as long as they live. It could never have been trained for because it should never have happened. I am glad that most of the general public (that I have read) support the Fire Service."

100% this! ^

I reckon they're lying about the true number of people who died in there, too.

There is a post doing the rounds on FB from a firefighter who was there that night

Saw that earlier. Those Firefighters deserved a medal not criticism.

I’m not sure whether they’re lying or whether they don’t actually know, taima

training obviously needs to be altered to take into account that fires and buildings do not always obey the 'rules, and plans and procedures may need to change at any minute

King's Cross station fire.

Fires obey the rules of science; unfortunately our understanding of science and the situations we face is incomplete and constantly developing.

Firefighters are trained in how fire "behaves" from a scientific standpoint so that they can predict it and plan and respond safely and appropriately - without putting additional people in harm's way (whether from serious injury due to unnecessary evacuation, or pouring firefighters into a situation that kills them).

The fire at Grenfell should not have spread the way it did - which is why we need the investigation - and therefore was outside their expectations and ability to predict what it would do next and how to respond safely. Even when it started to spread, how is it you think they should have known it would fly around that building because of the cladding? Building regs are supposed to prevent that.

You're basically criticising them for lacking psychic powers.

Seriously, look up what happened in the King's Cross station fire and the response afterwards.

Before that fire there was no understanding that fires could even behave the way they did that day. We are much safer and better equipped to respond to fires because of the knowledge gained by investigating it thoroughly.

With the knowledge acquired since it would be easy to look back and criticise, but you'd be criticising them for not holding knowledge nobody had and for attempting to respond in the way that all the evidence up until that point indicated was safest and most appropriate.

This fire needs to be properly investigated and real change should follow.

I'm with a charity helping grenfell firefighters and residents, consequently I hate these programmes trying to apportion blame when an official enquiry is still going on.
Firefighters are still traumatised as are residents and not for me to say what happened, yes hindsight is a wonderful thing

emergency-services.news/?p=8055

Just going to leave this. The fire service did what they could with what they could.

We as a civilisation continue to build more and higher with little regard for the fact that above a certain floor level (actually c9/10) a fire cannot be effectively fought and therefore it's always damage limitation anyway,

The fact the fire service have been shunted the blame by C4 is just disgusting in my view.

I also read a book on survival recently regarding who survives and why in various disaster situations and it seems that the people who make their own decisions sometimes going against the official advice or are often the ones who make it through. I'm sure that it works the opposite way about too though.

I feel so sorry for those fire fighters , can’t imagine what they witnessed as well as the poor residents.
I didn’t watch this as thought it would make me angry.
It wasn’t the firefighters fault , it was the cheap ass people who built / designed these death trap buildings.
I go past this building often and it still brings tears to my eyes

Ptahneith. I'm not criticising them for having psychic powers, but there have been a few similar tower block fires on a much smaller scale where the fires did not behave as expected and one where even though it was obvious that the fire had breached the preventative measures in place people were still not told to evacuate, leading to deaths including those of firefighters. There was a documentary on BBC which showed that little had been learned from those, not by the firefighters who have no power but by those who do. I wish I could recall which fires exactly. I'll have to look them up, I only recall that they discussed the Summerland fire.

I have to be careful what I say as the enquiry is still running. My husband was a firefighter at Grenfell. The profound affect that night has had on so many of his colleagues is of course nothing compared to these victims but those men and women were very very brave and are still suffering. It’s awful for them to feel blamed. My husband is downstairs watching it now and I worry for him. He feels he failed personally that night despite risking his life and going beyond procedure by entering the building twice under air.
Yes there were decisions that could have been made quicker/differently but no one knows if it would have made things better or worse. Reading the statements of those who survived many were unable to self evacuate due to the conditions and the rapid spread of the fire. Dh said the stairwell was so narrow it was hard for 2 people to pass, there were hoses and bodies. It was thick smoke. Dh was barely able to withstand the heat in his fire gear. How would people be able to evacuate in those conditions.
They were dealing with something the likes of which they’ve never dealt with before. Even those higher up we’re doing all they could to save lives. The stay put policy was not the fire brigades but a building regs one.

Oh God your poor dh !

Its very easy to be wise after the event but the sad truth is that professional firefighters on the scene, the commanders of crews ,stuck rigidly to procedure and dogma despite the evidence of their own eyes and did not have the necessary acumen,flexibility and confidence to see what was happening and why and issue an evacuation order.

acumen?

Wow.

ineedsomeinspiration Your DH is a hero

Fucking ridiculous program!

The amount of cuts made to the fire service & they are still expected to be able to work as effectively?

Every firefighter there did the best they could, there was a stay put policy, they cannot go against that, they could be held personally responsible for anything that had gone wrong had they gone against it.

The fire service are fucking amazing, every single day, they do (or could potentially) put their lives on the line to save others, is that really to be criticised?

ineedsomeinspiration please pass on my thanks to your dh and all his colleagues for the bravery they show every day. Not just in high profile cases like this.
They do an amazing job
I won't watch dispatches as I agree with pp that the blame should not be on the fire service and the enquiry and lessons learnt are still ongoing

Innedsomeinsperation, your husband is amazing & deserves everyone's admiration, they are heros.

The thing is if they decided to go against the stay put policy earlier then things went wrong they’d be blamed for that too.
Those poor firefighters were going in 2/3 times (against policy), without hoses/water (not policy) and working whilst their whistles were blowing to say they were running out of air.
If anyone is interested you can go on the enquiry website and read firefighter and survivors statements. LFB must have struggled to have the infrastructure for this it was the biggest fire seen in London since the blitz.

Love how they are trying to pass blame to the firefighters...

I didn't watch the programme, because I suspected it would make me furious on the firefighters' behalf. My friend's husband is a firefighter and one of the teams from his station was sent out to Grenfell.
There were all sorts of hideous events that happened there that didn't make the news either. No need for details, but my friend did say that all of them were working above and beyond protocol that night, but in the event of anyone losing their life whilst technically breaking rules, their families would not be eligible for death-in-service benefits.

Agree the fire service are amazing I'm too much of a coward to go into a burning building must've been hell that night, wonder if those tv people making money out of a tragedy would have the courage to try and put out that awful fire

I think also people need to be more aware of what to do during a fire, especially in tower blocks. I watch enough shows about fire and I’m generally interested in public services as well as taking a fire and safety course many years ago. It’s alright being told to stay put but I feel you should have some knowledge of what to do should a situation go awry.