To be worried about holidaying in England this summer?

[Peregrane]

As a family using foreign languages with our children, that is. Brexit is not shaping up to be pretty, and with attitudes hardening among hardcore leavers, Farage's brand new Brexit party clocking up 100 000 members in days etc, I am genuinely worried about being abused in public.

For context, I am British but we live abroad; I use my first language with my children which is not English, and DH uses yet another language. We speak in English with each other and the DC have a mostly passive knowledge of it. Even if they were fluent in English I would prefer not to change our family language policies while on vacation anywhere.

We normally holiday in the UK every year. I love the country, and as a naturalised citizen I proudly swore to uphold its values and institutions. I attended a Russel Group university on private scholarships, have had good jobs, only used the NHS for the odd GP visit while I lived there, while (very happily) contributing social security and taxes, so my balance with the system is heavily in the positive. I'd personally feel quite happy to tell any xenophobe who'd pick on us while spending our money in support of the UK economy to fuck off (provided it's reasonably safe to do so), but I do not want to expose my children to unpleasant scenes, let alone to feeling threatened.

For anyone who wants to come in and accuse me of trolling or paranoia: it is always less visible to members of a majority what minorities being picked on go through. There are people hating "foreigners" in every country, it's not specific to the UK or England either. To the contrary, I always found the UK to be one of the most wonderfully tolerant and welcoming countries I've lived in. But Brexit - the campaign leading up to it, and all that has gone down since - seems to be undoing this legacy, and people who might previously have kept their antipathy to themselves can now feel emboldened to let it loose.

I don't necessarily want to stir up a hornets' nest with this post; but I need to fix our vacation plans and I am genuinely very torn about this!

This was posted today on another thread (hope you don't mind my sharing @Henrysmycat)

^I got attacked verbally (and told to go home) today for speaking another EU language on the tube and no one did anything. I am not going to go into details and derail the convo but it’s another notch on the Brexit. I’ve been here 25 years, this has happened to me twice in the last year. I’m so unbelievably heartbroken and yes, I blame the Brexit.^

This isn't as imaginary a problem as some might think.

I live in Europe and the number of English language study holidays being offered to the UK is lower than last year. Ireland is seen as a safer bet, especially as these holidays are offered to higher income families who don’t want to send their precious offspring to a potentially disrupted country.

I think employment in Ireland is going to benefit HUGELY from Brexit. Just last month I advised a company to offer a three-month €15,000 (!) contract which needed an English mother-tongue graduate to an Irish citizen, rather than risk income tax/legal problems with a British person further down the line. There are plenty of top-class graduates in Ireland.

Welcome to the reality of Brexit...

Hi Op, I personally don't blame you for being apprehensive. I'm American and I live here, so no experience with Brexit, but it's quite interesting that Trump got elected the same year.

Anyway, I am mixed with many different nationalities. I have English, German, French , Hungarian Mexican and Spanish (Basque). So, I can pass as many things and most people get it wrong, which is fine. I welcome all comparisons and guesses as I truly believe you can find beautiful people in every country.
Well, a lot of the comparisons I get are Lebanese, even from Lebanese people. It was a relatively hot day, and I dress rather modestly, long dresses with long sleeves, shawls etc. So, while I was at the farmers market with my husband, one of the sellers (who was white) was questioning how I was dressed and started to talk about the muslims in the middle east. I was flabbergasted, We decided not to give him any money and went to the next stall. There we spent over 100 USD on various homemade balsamic oils (which he and his wife were also selling) I also talked about how I was born here, and that my both my father and husband fought for this country. Blah, blah, blah. Which is all true of course. I made sure that I was loud so they could hear me. As, we were about to leave, his wife approached me and apologized for the behaviour of her husband. She knew what he did was shitty and ignorant.

I also have been asked by a fellow neighbour if my best friend (who is also a neighbour)from India, is my sister? We look nothing alike except for having dark hair and dark eyes.

It's casual racism and I have experienced an increase in it, since Trumps election, and I'm sure you have to since Brexit.

I personally, would wait until the dust settles more before going, or change your itinerary to include places that are more tourist friendly. Especially, because of the language that you use with your children. I only speak English, and perfect English, and I still get the casual racism shit. The fact that your family is bilingual will make you stand out more imo.

Whatever, you decide to do, I wish you the best time coming home.

Bobstersmum I find it hard to believe someone chooses to come to Britain on holiday every year from abroad, its not cheap and you can't guarantee the weather!
so that is why our tourist industry generates over a billion a year and employs 2 million people.

Come to Scotland. We voted remain (mainly), have a minority language (my dc are fluent Gaelic speakers) and it's far and away the best part of the uk, apart from The Midges!

There are some racists, just as there always are (in all countries). The vast majority of people, who aren't racists, will be just as welcoming as they would have been before Brexit existed, and totally unbothered by what language you speak.

There are racists everywhere it’s rather rude to imply all of England are the same.

If you decide to come to Scotland, the midges aren't a problem unless you are in the higher part of the Highlands, and away from the coast.

"There are racists everywhere it's rather rude to imply all of England are the same".

Quite right, in fact it's rather...um.... racist. 😂

@PBo83 Thank you.

Stmajormummy You do realise that you are not supposed to discriminate against people based on their nationality? I wouldn’t want to work for a company who were happy to do that.

We found north Wales to be unfriendly.

Scotland on the other hand was great. Everyone was warm and welcoming. Can't recommend the west coast enough.

“There are racists everywhere it’s rather rude to imply all of England are the same.”

@Yesixancancan if you were addressing that to me, you are reading things into my posts that are not there. Why would I even be considering going to England if I felt that way? Did you not notice I wrote that we have many friends there, that until recently I felt like we were going home, that I found it to be wonderfully welcoming and tolerant?

Of course I don’t imagine that most English people, or all those who voted Leave, are racist, let alone willing to show it. (Although those protesting that Brexit is just about leaving bureaucracy behind must be joking. Sure enough, for some it’s to do with “bureaucracy”, but statistically there is a link to xenophobia and hate crime shot up in the run-up to and the aftermath of the vote. Eg www.researchgate.net/blog/post/xenophobia-found-to-be-strong-predictor-for-brexit-vote-regardless-of-age-gender-or-education

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369183X.2018.1451308

My concern has been rather to do with the globally well documented fact that if it starts being seen as socially acceptable to be hostile to foreigners, then the minority who is predisposed that way will feel emboldened to do so. And as pointed out by others as well on this thread and elsewhere, the pre-and post-referendum narratives have contained a good dose of that, unleashing a genie from the bottle.

The police in England and Wales seem to think so... www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/10/will-brexiteers-finally-admit-eu-referendum-caused-hate-crime#amp

And further nastiness after the end of March, in case things start going south, might deliver another boost to the haters.

Thank you for all the food for thought so far :)

Peregrane, have you decided what to do yet? Or, do you think you need to sit on it for awhile, maybe talk to DH again?

Best of luck to you, btw, on whatever you decide. Although, I'd really be glad to know that you're going home.

I think the OP said the UK, NOT England. This Little England being the centre of the universe drives me insane- there are 4 countries In the UK!

I've just realised it says England in the opening post, it is the UK that the OP refers to through out. Apologies.

I find this offensive and I voted to remain.

Is this thread a joke?!

HopeIsNotAStrategy

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Excellent post. The UK is still a wonderful and welcoming country and there are many many reasons that people voted for Brexit...it's unfair to label half the country as racists!

I hope you have a lovely time OP. Whereabouts where you thinking of going?

I’m sure this thread is a piss take.yes you will always get the occasional knob, anywhere, Americans taking the piss cos you aren’t Olympic standard for water polo whilst on holiday in Mexico, Parisian waiters overtly ignoring you cos you’re British etc. But it’s not everyone. People holiday in other countries all the time. If this is actually serious you’ll be fine!

I live on the South Coast. I’m still hearing plenty of different languages while I’m out and about - who knows if they’re residents or visitors - but not one person looked uncomfortable.

I admit I felt slightly worried going over to France / Germany after the referendum because of the possible image created by Brexit, but I didn’t encounter problems that way either.

I'm starting to feel offended by this thread too. Wanting to leave an organisation that you don't feel best serves your country, is resistant to change, houses a lot of failed politicians on the gravy train etc does not equal racist. Even believing that freedom of movement isn't the way to go doesn't equal racism.
Reasons to avoid Britain at the moment would be the increased level of knife crime in the cities, which the govt appears to be doing little to address. Or the fact that tourist attractions are priced at eye watering levels and you might get more value for money elsewhere. Not Brexit. I can't guarantee you won't meet anyone horrible here, but no one in any country can guarantee that.

and people who might previously have kept their antipathy to themselves can now feel emboldened to let it loose

I dont think the OP is blaming brexit for people being racist

Racist remain and leave and cant be arsed to vote people have always been racist

Bowchicawowow
It’s not discrimination, it’s simply that after Brexit happens UK citizens WILL NOT HAVE the same rights to work in Europe as people from fellow EU countries.
And with the “bilateral agreement” nonsense, nobody knows what those rights will be.

As I said, welcome to the reality of Brexit.

@Deadbudgie “Americans taking the piss cos you aren’t Olympic standard for water polo whilst on holiday in Mexico, Parisian waiters overtly ignoring you” is rude and unpleasant, and I am sorry you had those experiences. I linked official UK statistics up thread that demonstrates a link between Brexit and hate crime, which is a bit different. It’s regrettable if some of you are offended by that, or misread that as implying other things (such as all Brexiters are racist, which is something I did not say and do not believe).

Yes I am very aware of the difference between England and the UK, genuinely sorry if some were offended by my phrasing (which was accurate but it would take a while to explain why we are looking at travel in England and not the other nations etc - but just to say I am not confusing England with Great Britain with the UK).

MissLane and others, thank you for your kind posts. I am now thinking about booking refundable accommodation and seeing closer to the time how this shakes out before reserving Eurostar tickets. If the UK leaves with a deal in March, we’ll probably go. If there is no deal, or the can is kicked down to June and feelings start running high(er), we’ll probably sit it out this year.

This is just ridiculous! The UK is the same welcoming gentle country it has always been.

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