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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

DS despises Catcher In The Rye. So proud of him.

256 replies

ReanimatedSGB · 14/02/2019 23:48

I'm also rather surprised that this tedious wank is still being pushed on schoolkids as Great Literature. I hated it when I read it in my teens and am very glad to find that DS is as unimpressesd as I was - it's just one long white-boy whine, isn't it?

OP posts:
MariaNovella · 15/02/2019 11:15

We shouldn’t ignore history but we need to be very careful about the messages our DC retain from the books they read at school. I have been pretty shocked at some of the sexist and outdated interpretations that our DC have been expected to take away with them.

Patroclus · 15/02/2019 11:17

There are a lot of really good US writers and books, but I think people regard the wrong ones highly. I really like Fitzgeralds writing and have read lots of him, but The Great Gatsby is another one I've looked back on and thought about what Im missing compared to everybody else. Some practically anonymous guy hanging around at parties with arseholes who hero worships some other nearly almost as anonymous guy.

TornTendon · 15/02/2019 11:21

Oh I love it. But also love The Goldfinch.

Patroclus · 15/02/2019 11:33

People make a good point abut what you identify with in writing tends to be what yu like. The reviewers at that time this boook came out would have been overwhelmingly like Holden in their background.

SunnyCoco · 15/02/2019 11:34

At a time when suicide is the biggest killer of young men in the UK, I do think it's useful for teen-agers to be exposed to art which demonstrates boys' and mens' expressions of sadness, depression, anxiety, and neurosis etc

In terms of the book, yes I love it and also find it heartbreakingly sad. I wouldn't want to live in a world where we all liked the same things though :)

I don't find it surprising that the OP has raised a child with similar views / tastes as her own.

pepperpot99 · 15/02/2019 12:09

I too l love the Goldfinch. Have you read that as well, OP? you'll doubtless consider Theo's story a 'white boy whine' , notwithstanding the fact that his father has abandoned him and his mother is blown up by a terrorist bomb in the first few chapters. Tsk, those white privileged males, eh?

I explained already that American Lit forms no part of the GCSE spec these days.

Personally, I think CITR is a terrific book and presents the internalised struggle of a teenage boy suffering from depression in an innovative (for the time) way. He is from a relatively wealthy background but it becomes apparent that wealth is no substitute for love and attention, as he learns to his detriment. The American dream is hollow and loveless in Holden's world.

I love discussing literature and especially swapping opinions and judgments about books; however, it's hard to take seriously someone who can only muster "tedious wank" and "white boy whine" as the sum total of their literary perspective.

Perhaps the OP though she was being 'funny' and 'edgy'?

NCjustforthisthread · 15/02/2019 12:11

^^ I don’t know if the OP was trying to be funny or edgy - she comes across as ignorant a little bit racist, I doubt she would ever say ‘black-boy tears’. But yes - I agree, I’m not sure you can take someone who sums up a whole book as ‘white boy whine’ seriously, if that is all she could come up with.

JennieLee · 15/02/2019 12:18

I think many of us are also proud when our children think differently from us, because they are turning into independent individuals. It's part of the process of them growing up, our letting go.

Don't get me wrong - I'm always glad when there is some common ground.

But we have really good discussions/arguments about our different forms of feminism. I'm pleased when I can see that she's thinking for herself and can articulate her point of view.

If she just came home and said, 'I think X is a load of old rubbish', I wouldn't go to the internet and boast about it. I'd just breathe a weary sigh and think 'Such is life'...'

Somethingsmellsnice · 15/02/2019 12:57

Norhing to add other than to correct a previous poster saying that gcse only covers British Literature now. This must be for that board only. My DS studied Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe (NIgerian).

PineapplePower · 15/02/2019 13:00

But who gets to define what makes a ‘seminal work of literature’

It’s a tricky one, all right. It’s definitely something ripe for debate and does change with the times!

Fazackerley · 15/02/2019 13:03

Dd is doing igcse - that covers non English literature, no Shakespeare

MargueritaPink · 15/02/2019 13:36

He will be if 13 year old girls are expected to believe that CITR is some masterpiece of insight into the male condition

I read the book as a teen and it spoke to
me as a relatively privileged, but angsty, teen girl

Another angsty, privileged teen girl here. The idea of everyone being phoneys (apart from me of course ) resonated with me.

nothinglikeadame · 15/02/2019 13:47

Films and books need to be appraised in the context of the year which they were released.

I think when reading CITR, you need to appreciate what was happening in America at the time . Teenagers were being demonised , they were starting to rebel against the normal societal heiracy.

Obviously if the OP's son is just taking it on face value now, then yeah it will be boring and connections won't be made.

Also, you can dislike a generally well thought of piece of literature and still be ignorant. Doesn't mean you have smarts just because you hold a different opion.

HeyCarrieAnneWhatsYourGame · 15/02/2019 13:49

Oh, I’ve found my people. Hated it when I read it at 13, hated it when I read it at uni at 20, would be very shocked if I didn’t hate it now. Tedious, moaning, wank of a book.

Ontopofthesunset · 15/02/2019 13:52

But no one is claiming that TCINTR is a 'masterpiece of insight into the male condition'. Holden is not some universal male - he's a very particular fucked up young boy. It's not my favourite book (though I am a big fan of Salinger's other works) but it has literary merit.

Of course a girl can read the book and think that Holden is an unlikeable person with some distasteful views, but she should also, even at 13, be able to think about some of the reasons why Holden is like that (though of course as he is unreliable not everything he says can be taken at face value). He's a product clearly of his time and his family and being sent away to boarding school and having no one to talk to about his grief and his emotions and sex. Of course Holden is going to be screwed up about relationships and not know how to treat women. There's a massive amount to think about just there.

If we only read books written by people like us about people like us, what will we ever learn? One of the main reasons literature is so powerful is that it can open our eyes to other experiences and views, even ones we find loathsome.

multivac · 15/02/2019 14:00

There's a vaguely disturbing whiff of no-platforming about this thread, for sure...

Juells · 15/02/2019 14:04

There's a vaguely disturbing whiff of no-platforming about this thread, for sure...

Which way? Genuine question.

multivac · 15/02/2019 14:07

Juells - Sorry, I was expecting everyone to follow my somewhat obscure thought process there! I mean, there's a lot of 'if it offends our sensibilities we just won't look at it' about. No-platforming was probably the wrong term; but I really didn't want to go full-on snowflake about it. Grin

multivac · 15/02/2019 14:08

PS Because I really, really dislike how 'snowflake' is used to close debate down, by the way...

Fishcakey · 15/02/2019 14:09

I love it! Have read it so many times.

OneStepMoreFun · 15/02/2019 14:31

I'd be proud too. What a whining load of old narcissistic tosh it was. Everyone who doesn;t think exactly like little Holden is a 'phoney'. Even at fifteen I remember working out that the audlts who were jaded were probably overworked and preoccupied with more important matters. Or knew it was social necessity to say one thing and think another sometimes. The self-aggrandizing, self-pitying tossery of it.

I have an MA in English Literature btw. It's not that the writing is bad, but that the character is odious and not at all the role model our trendy English teacher assumed he would be. But I do think it's a limited, over-rated novel.

KickAssAngel · 15/02/2019 14:40

Another reason why CITR is seen as part of "The Canon" is because the post WW1 white, male writers from the US were so distinctly different from anything that had gone before. Until then, even American writers had the same style as European ones.

As much as CITR can/should be criticized for be a white-boy whine (and it's a valid discussion imo) it was actually part of a new style of literature that altered things such as sentence structure, plot development, subject matter, narrative style etc. Ironically, it's a piece of white male literature that helped to open the doors to a new, different form of writing, and actually played a part in the (reluctant) acceptance of a broader range of writers within 'The Canon".

Achebe's Things Fall Apart was published 7 years later. If newer, less traditional writers had not already been accepted & established, then it's possible that Achebe would never have had the impact he did.

Of course, it's still incredibly difficult for African writers to be published. There are some with international success, and even then, their books are rarely easily available in Africa. So I don't think any aspiring white male novelists need to worry about being shut out of the publishing world just yet.

multivac · 15/02/2019 14:43

the character is odious and not at all the role model our trendy English teacher assumed he would be

A 'role model'?! Congratulations for getting your MA despite such a rubbish English teacher at an early age!

Alsohuman · 15/02/2019 14:48

I’m not sure he was intended to be a role model. Do we now only read literature with protagonists we want to emulate? MA in English here too.

easyandy101 · 15/02/2019 14:52

I find it strange how many people itt expected to like holden

Also the book was not written with adolescents in mind, it's adult fiction.

I also find it quite depressing that because something isn't obviously current it is boring. There's a way to write off huge swathes of classic books